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johnpenn

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7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

The Nvidia 7800gt is currently (Sept. 7th) the best price/performance card on the market.
It beats the Radeon x850xtpe in a number of benchmarks and the 7800gt is priced at between 370$ to 400$ on newegg.com . The x850xtpe is priced between 390$ and 500$.

But if you were going to get the x850xtpe, the following is the one to get. It is connect3d which is ATI's sister company in Europe and is basically the same exact model design as the ATI version:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?...N82E16814142046
With the rebate,shipping, and tax it comes to 390$

But as of the time of this post I am endorsing the 7800gt as the best BF2 solution on the market considering performance and price. It kicks the 6800Ultra's arse and gives the x850xtpe a run for its money, beating it in many benchmarks.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?...N82E16814130247

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?...N82E16814150108

Suggestion: anyone buying these higher end cards is going to need to start looking at 500+watt power supplies. Don't expect to be playing the newer gen cards on 400 or 350 watt psu's.

Beware: do not get the 128mb version.

09/07/05 02:32

BigDawg

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

I own the 6800 Ultra and I have no complaints from it. I play everything on Hi settings and dont have any problems.

80 to 90FPS consistant.

Nvidia ....The way its meant to be played...Beeatchhh

09/07/05 15:40

Saito

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

I wouldn't call it pummeled.

It turns out that nvidia cheated like hell in optimizations, which actual reduce image quality.

Also the real show down isn't YET, it will take place late fall.

that's when we see if the 32 pipe r520 can beat the 24 pipe gtx.

Don't place your faith off one vid card cycle especially one with borky optimizations.

My PC
CPU P4EE Gallitan core socket 478 @ 4.2ghz, Abit IC7-G Max 3, 2 gb PC4000 corsair xms, PC Power and cooling 510 psu, Albatron 6800gt @ ultra, Creative Audigy 2 ZS, Cooler master wave master case, Switech Liquid Cooling, Dual NEC 22 inch CRT, Klipch Pro Media 5.1, Senn HD280 pro, MS 3.0, Steel S&S, logitech elite.

09/07/05 19:14

johnpenn

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

I read you saito. Good info. I was aware of that info and wanted to say something about it, but was in too much of a hurry at the time. Can you link me to some authoritative sources on what you are saying? Part of the reason I started this thread was to get a conversation going.

I have read many articles on past cards showing where ATI sported nuanced differences in image quality. That is actually one thing that sold me on the x800xl over the 6800gt at the time I bought it. Its kind of like the difference between wine to get drunk and wine for taste. I have always thought ATI had better taste. But from a marketing standpoint they could stand to do a little cheating themselves.

I was not aware that Nvidia had engaged in the degree of cheating your comments seem to indicate.

As for your comments on future releases they are really not relevant to the intent of my post. I was really addressing myself to folks who were in the market for a 400$ card. I mean if money was no object I would encourage anyone to get whatever is the best card on the market.

Now, are you saying that the ATI Radeon x850xtpe actually has a better image quality per setting? To be honest I am actually very impressed with the x850xtpe. I would endorse it over the 6800ultra anyday. It shines in the benchmarks and does provide better image quality than its 6800ultra counterpart.

09/07/05 22:58

Saito

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

I can get you some sources later, they are all over most tech forums.

Nvidia has been “cheating” since the 5800. The entire FX line didn’t support full 32/24/26 percision and basically emulated it to gain frames, the problem is the game didn’t run properly so your textures/lighting went to crap. You couldn’t tell and it only hit a few games (but half life2 is a big game).

The current issue with the 6800/7800 cards is a bit more complex. To sum it up. They fubard the textures, and AA to raise frame rates through the roof. Now granted you do get a TON of extra FPS off it, but the visual quality is shot. Is this a bad thing? That depends on your view point. You get faster frames and silky smooth animation, but the game doesn’t look nearly as good as it does on ATI cards. This makes a huge difference in benchmarks (which is how a company sells cards) but in application it’s not good (provided your system is fast enough to generate good frames anyways).

This isn’t to say ATI is blameless, they aren’t. It’s two different approaches to how you make a card. ATI goes for image quality, and Nvidia goes for frame rate. Is deliberately reducing/removing support to gain frames cheating? I’d say yes because the benchmark is inherently flawed as one card runs it properly, and the other doesn’t. I’ll get you a link later but people basically went into the drivers, saw what was going on and then changed them. Interestingly the game looks as good as the ATI card but delivers worse frames.

Since you talked about the x850 let me touch on that. The x850 has better image quality then the 6800, or 7800 series, by leaps and bounds. However this is of questionable value when you consider that ATI charges more, and the card isn’t as strong as the 7800 when it comes to hardware. An x800/850 will always have better image quality at any setting than a 6800/7800 card, simply due to how Nvidia “optimized/cheated” to deliver insane frames and kick ass in benchmarks.

All of the above is personal taste, so let’s talk actual hardware items and issues that are not preference.

ATI- Good: Faster in D3D, takes less power, generates less heat, better video features, less “risky” architecture.
Bad: Slow in OGL, sucks in linux (driver issue explained later), lacks PS3.0

Nvidia- Good: The god of OGL, has PS3.0, over clocks very well.
Bad: Power hungry, heat problems, questionable architecture.

Not all of these issues mean much to people. OGL is dated and not really used. Only a few games run off it now (however DOOM3 and Quake4 are important), this is mostly for workstation use with professional applications (in which case you are talking a quadro and not a stock card). Both cards are fine in D3D, ATI is a bit faster but not enough to matter. The question here is do you intend to play Quake4 and want the fastest frames for it?

PS3.0- This is one of the most hotly contested items now, but it’s rather stupid. Currently only Farcry has PS3.0, nothing else uses it (Quake4 might). Even then it doesn’t add much. It’s great to have but it’s not really important. However PS3.0 is the future and other games will use it fully, but by then anything out on the market now will be obsolete and unable to use it without tanking to unplayable FPS.

Power/heat problems- This is where things get testy. If you have a beefy PSU, and great cooling then there is no reason for you to care about this. But… for those who don’t you can starve the rest of your system for juice, and cause heat problems. This is much the same argument against the P4 prescott series, they suck up juice and heat up.

Linux- If you don’t use linux then you shouldn’t care, if you do then stay away from ATI. Linux is a two fold problem for ATI. ATI doesn’t really work on their linux drivers, and linux uses OGL (which I went over that before). There is some rumor that ATI is kissing ass to Microsoft (would explain their uber d3d speed and their suck ass in OGL) but that’s a rumor.

Video features- if you don’t know what they are you don’t need them, simple as that.

Architecture- This is complicated and I’m far from an expert, however I do know enough to slim it down into non tech wording. ATI builds stronger cores that last longer (ie series the x8xx series is basically a 9800 on steroids) and work on making things stable. Nvidia tends to take risks and try new cores as fast as possible. It may not matter to most but this is the reason why Nvidia keeps having heat/power issues, bonky cards like the 5800, and having to “optimize” the hell out of their cards at the expense of features. However it does keep Nvidia on the cutting edge (even if it doesn’t always work properly), ATI just plays it safe here.

Overclocking- This is a double edged sword. ATI tends to clock cards to what it will stand and then sell them in various ranges. Nvidia likes to make one chip and then alter the clock rates for ranges. You can’t OC an x800xl to near the clock rates of an x800xt no matter what cooling you have or how much you volt mod it, the card will die before that. However you can OC a 6800gt past the speeds of an Ultra if you know what you are doing. This debate depends on if you have the ability to go for it.

The details on crossfire are just coming out, and it’s MUCH better than sli. You can mix more cards (ie an x850xt with an x800xl), it works with more games, and it’s faster. On the other hand it’s rather pricey and to get the best results requires ultra high end cards. (on a side note ATI motherboards have yet to prove themselves, Nvidia has).

That’s about as factual and unbiased as I can put it. For the record I have two systems, and use both products. One is an AMD system boasting an x800pro (I unlocked the pipes to turn it into an x800xt) which we use for photoshop, video editing, and other applications. It runs every game out just fine, and it looks gorgeous. My second system is my gaming box, and is much more aggressive (p4 3.2 oc’d to 4.1 1000fsb abit IC7-g max3, 2 gigs pc4000, 6800gt), this box is a monster and plays games very well though it’s not entirely stable (even with liquid cooling).

As to your original post and the last paragraph of this one. I would not endorse the 7800gtx, or the 6800ultra over ati x850xt, nor would I endorse ANY Nvidia card over it’s ATI counter part as a general rule of thumb. If you just want to play a game, get decent frames, and great image quality then ATI is the way to go.

I would always endorse Nvidia if you plan to do one of the following; deal in OGL mostly, run linux, over clock like crazy, or only care about frame rates.

Keep in mind you can always pay more with ATI and get better frames, no matter how much you shell out to Nvidia you can’t get around that image quality. The only way to do this is to use rather hard to find third party drivers, which will tank your FPS, and are of questionable quality.

You mentioned the $400 range, but honestly it’s a bit more complicated than that, there are 4 major ranges and each has two or three options.

$200, 6600gt, 6800nu, 9800pro, x800gt- Here you should only be looking at the 6600gt, or the x800gt, all of the above ati vs nvidia applies here. The one odd thing is if you feel like voiding all warranties and possibly vaping your card the 6800nu can unlock to 16 pipes, which makes it strong.

$300, 6800gt, x800pro, x800xl- The real battle is the 6800gt vs the 800xl, which boils down to the standard arguments, however you can hardmod (ie cut lines on the chip with a razer and then sodder it) the 800pro into an xt.

$400, 6800ultra, x850xt(pe)- Once again the basic arguments of ATI vs Nvidia, no card is a clear winner. However since this is a BF2 forum, the x850 part will beat out the 6800.

$500+- Only the 7800 cards are in this range now and you shouldn’t buy one. When the R520 comes out a couple things “should” (nothing ever happens like it should) happen. The R520 should beat out the 7800 by a HUGE margin, it’s that strong. This will force the 7800 prices down and force Nvidia to update their products to combat ATI with a card that stands up. I NEVER buy a part until it has a competitor, it’s just stupid to do so.

EDIT-

I'll get you the links when I run back by them. I'm a huge overclocker and thus frequent forums where people break down the tech into details to figure out what is what, this matters when you push your parts. The actual hard fact articles are burried in threads about graphic card tweaks/hacks and overclocks so it it may take a bit to find them.

But here is a GOOD start

QUOTE

Germans claim Nvidia caught over optimising - [Computer Hardware]
Submitted by Forcefire on 8/30/2005 8:53:05 AM

WE CALL IT optimisation these days, but what do you call it when a firm over optimises? We used to call it something different in the days of the NV30, when Nvidia had to do something to make its chip work better and do better in benchmarks but to our surprise it seems to have done it again. The chaps from 3D Center, a very talented in-depth site, spotted and tested and proved that Nvidia is using a lower anisotropic filtering quality than any other card available.

Those guys noticed a texture shimmering problem when you are using normal driver settings. This was the case with NV40 cards but you could resolve this flickering by using high quality driver settings. This won't work on G70 based cards, so the guys well known for its thorough benchmarks went digging a little deeper into the chip.

It turns out that Nvidia is not doing anisotropic filtering the way it should and that the picture quality is the one to suffer. You will get the shimmering effect on your textures whenever you are using Geforce 7800GTX cards but you won't see this using Radeon cards.

The guys claimed that all NV40 and G70 cards will suffer from the same flickering problem and that these cards have "by far worse AF quality". They also add that Nvidia got the flickering because it was using general under sampling and as a result is getting the flickers. It's interesting to note that older Geforce 5800 Ultra won't suffer from this, just the new cards that 6800 or 7800 based.

Another German web site Computerbase , went a step further. It made a custom driver by changing the inf, where the driver could not recognise 7800GTX and use its optimisations. The card was listed as unknown but was working just fine. But when the guys went testing they noticed a massive performance drop when using those drivers, close to 30 percent and related it to anisotropic filtering. Nvidia has a lot to explain.

3DCenter, for the original article, is here in English while the Computerbase German article is here. We will ask Nvidia what is going on but we think there's something up. At lease the guys proved it isn’t a hardware bug - it's a driver problem only but performance drops dramatically as soon as you resolve it.

Source: theinquirer

09/08/05 21:52

johnpenn

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

thx. you have restored my faith in my instincts. I gave you a 5 on both posts.

I have a step brother who is all ati all the time. He'll like your post.

09/08/05 23:35

Bloodless_End

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

ATI is not getting pummelled ..... if anything the 7800 is .... you are so right cant anyone tell the quality of ati cards are much better so what if the fps is a lil bit slower the quality is so much better

09/09/05 23:11

Saito

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

@johnpenn

Always trust your instincts. Benchmarks can be manipulated with drivers, so can Frame Rate, but you ALWAYS pay in some other area. It’s just that visual quality doesn’t produce such “black and white one is uber the other lags” results as benchmarks.

I don’t know if your brother will like my post, I made some good arguments for Nvidia from another point of view. I’m sure fans of either could read a ton into that post and come up with their own conclusions. I only know this much because it relates to my work (but those cards are another matter and quadro/firegl cards are a another level) and thus I know what both companies are up to. The only reason ATI can claim victory is because they didn’t lie/cheat with their cards, but that wont’ give them the crown in frame rate.

@Bloodless_End, you are partially correct. Yes it’s true that ATI draws the game correctly, and has the best visual quality by a long shot. It’s also true that ATI is more stable, uses less power, and doesn’t have heat issues. But this isn’t always the better choice.

The best gamers out there don’t give a damn about details. Here is a good example, you can max out details in ut2k4 with an amd 2500+, 1gig ram, 9800pro, and NEVER drop below the 85 fps frame camp. Yet gamers with fx55, 2gigs ram, 7800gtx run it in 800x600 all low. Obviously frames are not the issue here. It’s other more complex technical issues, along with the fact that removing visual clutter will improve your shot because you have les distractions. While this sounds idiotic it’s the honest truth of how people are playing their games. These same people run 550+ psu’s, and have extreme cooling.

To them ATI has no practical advantage, so it boils down to their ability to overclock to future proof their system.

The question is how many people know the truth about what they are buying before they spend their hard earned cash?

One final note that I know will come up.

Back in the days of the ATI rage cards, they had a serious bad batch of drivers, and it still haunts them to this day. It’s been years since that went down but people rub it their face all the time. My point is beaware that ATI fails at times also.

@johnpenn

I just noticed you stated something very wrong in your fist post. Conn3d is NOT ati’s partner, nor do the make the best ATI products. ATI’s first tier partner is sapphire, and they make the best parts. The current best x850xtpe is the sapphire blizzard which is cooled by liquid metal.

For the record sapphire is making the crossfire boards, and they should be out soon.

09/10/05 00:08

Bloodless_End

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

ill still go with ATI

way off top[ic but how do u get the credit thingy below posts and what not

09/10/05 00:16

Saito

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

People have to rate you or an admin gives it to you (this is post credit) or you can build site credit via screenshots, guides, articles, and what have you.

Down the road credit will lead to prizes.

For those that don't know I'm a site manager/admin here, and on the global gaming league. If you have any questions about how things work feel free to PM me.

09/10/05 00:18

Bloodless_End

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

gotcha ... so what vid card do you have ..... and do you go amd or intel

09/10/05 00:21

Saito

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

QUOTE

For the record I have two systems, and use both products. One is an AMD system boasting an x800pro (I unlocked the pipes to turn it into an x800xt) which we use for photoshop, video editing, and other applications. It runs every game out just fine, and it looks gorgeous. My second system is my gaming box, and is much more aggressive (p4 3.2 oc’d to 4.1 1000fsb abit IC7-g max3, 2 gigs pc4000, 6800gt), this box is a monster and plays games very well though it’s not entirely stable (even with liquid cooling).

LOL I said what I run above…

I have an AMD box that I use for when image quality counts. Single player games, and applications. It runs fast enough that I could play any game on the market out with it now.

My other system is an OC box that exists only to floor benchmarks, of course it kicks the crap out of games. However it has serious thermal issues, and is (by nature) made for speed and not accuracy.

I don’t have product loyalty, both do what they are meant to fine. I just question what most know about them since most online people are fanyboys and have no real knowledge about the products they use.

09/10/05 00:32

Bloodless_End

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

why do you have such a kick ass intel system but then cheep out an put that vid card in ...... like i say in a dif post thats like making a muscle car and only putting in a v6..... iv u like nvidia y not go with the 7800 series.... seems to me like u had the money

09/10/05 11:12

Saito

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

Well my Intel system is AGP based so I couldn’t upgrade to a 7800 card even if I wanted to (PCIE only). The highest end cards for agp are the x850xtpe, or the 6800 ultra. Given that I plan on playing Quake4 (OGL) and I have two HD’s in it, of which one runs linux, Nvidia made more sense.

Also this is a heavily overclocked system, and the 6800gt OC”s farther than any other AGP card (this is provided you have the cooling for it). The card is clocked FAR past ultra and runs fine.

Even if I could throw in a faster card, it wouldn't make any difference other than in synthetic benchmarks (and even that would be minor) since the CPU is pushed to far. Short of SLI or cross fire (once again this is an AGP board so I couldn't even if I wanted to) I won't see much of a real world difference.

Also just because the system is fast doesn't mean it cost a lot of money, if you shop around for sales you can find most items very cheaply. The only part of my system I paid full price for was the case (lol).

09/10/05 20:51

Bloodless_End

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

yeah that makes more sence..

i have all this

Antec Plusview 1000AMG
Asus P4C800E Deluxe
Intel Pentium 4 3.2Ghz 1mb Cache
Corsair Twinx 2gb PC3200 Cl2.5-3-3-6
Seagate 160Gb 8mb
Ati Radeon X850XT-PE AGP8X
Ocz 520w

Paid around $3,500

i could of got it for cheeper but i wanted it soon plus i had the money

and does anyone actually vote .... ive been on this site for a few days and i havent seen to many ppl voting on ppls posts at all

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

09/10/05 21:05

Saito

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

Heh, your system isn’t that far off mine. The major difference is the ram speed, and the motherboard which lets me OC far past stock.

People do rate posts, though it tends to happen much more in MMORPG areas. I think a couple of mine have been rated.

09/10/05 21:57

Bloodless_End

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

yeah i wanted a good set of ram so i decided to spend around 400-500 on it ..... whats the seed of yours .... i would oc my stuff its just i really dont kon how.... just really havent had the need ....im only in grade 11 ... i do alot of animation in high quality programs such as Maya 6.5 and 3d Studio Max... i also do a fair bit of video editing in (Adobe) Preimere and After Effects.... hoping to go to a Arts school after grad .... so i may need to oc then but by then the clockspeeds would have gotten greater... well c .... do u kno any sites that could teach me how to oc if i needed to in the future

yeah ive rated like almost everyone of yours .... i think ive rated everyone in this topic here

but yeah i kinda changed the subject a while back .... nvidia may be better then ati in some ways ... but i still wont change from ati

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

09/10/05 22:54

Saito

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

pc3200 is 200mhz, pc400 is 250mhz so it's 25% faster (translates into speed boosts in CPU and FSB also) but you need to OC to see that speed (my ram is pc3200 rated for that level of OC and tested to hit it and then set at it).

I sent you a PM about OC's. I'm not going to get into it on a public "non OC forum" as I don't want to be reponsible of somebody OC"s a dell and it brakes down:)

09/12/05 21:10

Bloodless_End

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

yeah my freind has had a few dells pos i would say ... damn thing wont take barly anything for ram ... and the stock fans just blow..... i would never go for dell... id prefer just building my own anyday

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

09/12/05 22:00

decay78

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Re: 7800gt : ATI is getting pummelled

Run what you brung and ATI aint brung anything to get into the track....

09/14/05 18:54

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