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ngnice

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Defenders who don't defend

I have played City of heroes since the day of release. I have always said, "People pay to play this game so they can play the way they want" having said that I must also say that they now have to live with the consequences of their actions.

ie. If a Defender decides to take an offensive set of powers then they must accept the fact that they will not be of much help to the team. If People want offense they will recruit a blaster. If they want Defense, that is where the Defenders come in.

I have seen too many defenders who only attack and as a result of that team members die in missions expecting them to heal them however they only have one heal power.

So to all the offensive defenders out there. It would be a wise idea to put in your description in the search engine that you are not a healer. Just to avoid confusion and ultimately being kicked from the team.

10/03/05 05:40

govtmorgue

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

N there are quite a few people out there who mainly run with other defenders. I have witnessed first hand where a team was 8 defenders, and the team ruled. That's why some defenders are blaster defenders. On a team of 8 defenders, you will have some many debuffs/buffs that its like having a regular blaster on the team. That's all dependent on their gmaeplay also. Some just made a defender to help themselves, not the team.

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10/03/05 05:58

RonJ73

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

It's also a matter of available power sets. There are no Dark Blasters or Radiation Blasters available. So you might make a Dark/Dark Defender and play it like a blaster. Or you might make a Kin/Rad defender and play it like a Rad Blaster. If ALL the defender secondaries were available to blasters, I don't think you would see this as often. I can understand the opposite not being true, but the blast sets should be available to blaster primaries. (Yes yes, they can use the "it debuffs defense, so we don't want it as a blaster set, makes them too defendery" crap, but I don't buy it. :) )

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10/03/05 07:24

Nakoma

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

First off, welcome to the site. We love new posters!

QUOTE

I have seen too many defenders who only attack and as a result of that team members die in missions expecting them to heal them however they only have one heal power.

While I somewhat agree that a defender who wants to do nothing but attack should have made a blaster, I do not like this statement above. There is a reason that the class is called Defender and not Healer. It is a popular misconception that all Defenders should be healers, and that is not their only purpose. A Defender's job is to keep the team alive, by using whatever means they have at their disposal. It doesn't always mean healing. I have a level 36 storm/dark defender, who didn't even have 02 burst until recently. And without being able to heal, I was still a valuable part of any team, and did a great job of keeping people alive. It's all about how you use your powers, not just about healing.

And if you want to know if you are getting a healer or not, you can always send a tell to somebody before inviting them. I have many people ask me if I am a healer first, instead of assuming. And some are smart enough not to care.

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10/03/05 07:52

Hobsnob

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

If you look at the description of a defender, its 'purpose' is to buff teammates and debuff foes. Although blaster secondary sets have some debuffs ('caltrops', holds etc) they aren't as effective or numerous as defender debuffs.
Also buff doesn't always mean heal. Speed boost is one of my favourite ever defender buffs, though it won't necessarily stop you from dying.
It is very easy to shift the blame onto the defender when as mob floors you, and it is easy to get fustrated at them. However, it isn't always their fault; if a blaster isn't doing enough damage the mobs can overwhelm a group, if the tank isn't holding aggro well enough the squishies will die (I always feel responsible for all my team when it comes to this!). Also, you will die. It is going to happen, you just need to accept it.

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10/03/05 12:47

govtmorgue

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

No way...my blaster never died (cough at lvl 24 i had 35000 debt...the max at that lvl)

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10/03/05 13:07

Gon_Edain

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

QUOTE

Well said, Nakoma. Personally, with my Rad/Rad. I see my role as debuffs first, followed by handing out beatdowns second, and then heals third. Why third? The rad heal is not that strong to begin with so I think I am much more effective focusing on debuffs. And that's not to say I don't heal - I do plenty of it.

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10/03/05 13:44

shpadoinkle

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

My trick arrow/archer CAN'T heal so if you would be expecting them you would be waiting a long time. But I can slow the foes down and blind them. But I can do some damage and once I get oil slick it should be pretty nice.

I prefer to have good forcefields instead of healing on the team. It is less work for the defender and allows them to help inflict damage

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10/03/05 13:56

Nakoma

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

QUOTE

My trick arrow/archer CAN'T heal so if you would be expecting them you would be waiting a long time.

*shakes fist*

You BETTER get your healing arrow soon...

10/03/05 14:06

Delphon

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

QUOTE

I have played City of heroes since the day of release. I have always said, "People pay to play this game so they can play the way they want" having said that I must also say that they now have to live with the consequences of their actions.

So to all the offensive defenders out there. It would be a wise idea to put in your description in the search engine that you are not a healer. Just to avoid confusion and ultimately being kicked from the team.

I am an offensive and now offended Mutation Defender. Until becoming a defender with significant offensive capability teams were only a way to incur debt as they regularly agro'd things they could not handle and they exceeded my ability to heal them. Asking a defender to have no offense is like asking a Tank or Scrapper to have no healing buffs or devices at all.

I believe Arch Type is a baseline which is enhanced by how you play them. I solo alot, but am always complimented on teams now that I added offensive capabilities as when they over step their abilities I do not have to die with them and therefore can finnish the group they attacked and rez them for the remainder of the mission. I would no more give up being capable of killing enemies +2 my level or a group +1 level than I would want or expect a Tank or Scrapper to depend on me for healing every hit point they lose.

TEAM is about sharing the load and having general assignments but everyone should be able to kill something and to heal to some degree. As for a defender that cannot defend - now that is absurd but I know many excellent ones with significant teeth.

I can live with the consequences of my choices quite well.
As for changing my description - not necessary - I talk with my teammates about what they expect and what I expect before beginning a mission (who agros, do we snipe, what group first, where is the healer based so wounded can find them?) you arent much of a team if everyone is playing their own mission.

- Blind Invities who charge in with anyone who answers often Die with the consequences of their choices rather than the other way.

10/03/05 14:08

shpadoinkle

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

QUOTE

My trick arrow/archer CAN'T heal so if you would be expecting them you would be waiting a long time.

*shakes fist*

You BETTER get your healing arrow soon...

It would be fun to heal someone by launching an arrow right into their chest

10/03/05 14:42

Nakoma

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

QUOTE

It would be fun to heal someone by launching an arrow right into their chest

I was thinking more in the way of shooting someone in the butt. To each their own...

10/03/05 14:58

Mr_ElSalvador

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

No offense to the OP, but one of the biggest signs of inexperience with the game is a teammate who only values a defender who can move the HP bar up. Sure, it's a bonus, but defending is preventing, curing, or mitigating damage. Slows, disorients, acc debuffs to name a few, all fill the role of defender.

I also, have a Storm/Dark defender (SL 38), and I'm at my best when I'm allowed to cut loose, because, frankly, my weak heal is often times too little too late. But because I understand the game and my powersets, I have many more valuable tools at my disposal.

And it's an opportune time to point out that there has never been a better time to be a defender. We're no longer second stringers who are part of the squishy set. Lately, I've had a full time job of keeping some of our SG's tankers alive.

People need to be educated about the difference between defending and healing. The OP is correct in that a defender who doesn't defend will probably not find a long career on many teams. But a defender who doesn't heal is probably quite capable of keeping you alive nonetheless.

10/04/05 01:06

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

The way i read the initial post I agree with it. Your defender can be a "blaster light" but please let your team know. If you are an emp or bubbler and dont heal or bubble just give the team the courtesy of warning them (though you know a bubbler doesnt bubble before combat)

Doc

10/04/05 08:24

RonJ73

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

I personally think that the "Blaster Light" should take Kinetics or Storm for a primary. At least then you have a lot of powers that have some good Solo use as well as team use. Plus, no one expects anything out of a Kinetics or Storm defender. ;) But like the good Doctor said, make sure your team is aware.

10/04/05 12:02

Protusion

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

Anyone can play the game however they want, but I sure do appreciate a Defender healing me more then I do a Defender not healing me. The teams always perform better with a healing Defender on-board. It allows everyone to stick it out longer instead of running away or dying.

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10/04/05 12:14

Gon_Edain

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

QUOTE

If a defender keeps you alive, does it matter whether he did it by healing or by a debuff or by a buff? I just get the feeling that only the obvious (i.e., healing) is appreciated by many players.

10/04/05 12:35

WarShadow

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

Hell I can't seem to play anyother defender besides a kinetic but just try and get a bunch of new people to understand that they must be near the enemy to get healed. I was in hell last night on one team because they yelled at me for not healing but they did love the speed boost though.

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10/04/05 12:51

Mr_ElSalvador

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

QUOTE

I disagree. As a defender I can't make players perform better. And if I heal them, they actually start to perform worse. At least if I deny them the heals, they might actually think about what they're doing, and how to work with my 8 other primary powers.

10/04/05 12:53

tfalpha

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

Defenders should not feel obligated to the team for just healing, you are there to play a game and have fun. I personally enjoy being a emp defender and healing and buffing is ALL I do. I have a few Dark Blast attacks and my first Dark Mastery power, but I never use them unless I am the only member left standing or things are getting to close to me. But just because someone plays a defender doesnt mean that they must heal their teammates, I play with several other defenders that barely carry healing inspirations...nevermind a healing power. :)

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***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

10/04/05 13:04

DocVengeance

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

I guess one point being made is not all healers heal. I think most of us are aware of that. I think the original point (correct me if I'm wrong) is defenders that dont use the primaries. I have mostly seen this with emp, but I have seen it with others. With something like a bubbler who does not bubbble you know you dont have a bubble before you charge in, with a heal you dont know they arent doing it till it's too late. I had a dark def on a low team tell me he didnt have a heal (everyone was getting hurt bad and a lot of death) as i have "some" xp with DDD and since i often check the def powers so I know what to expect/how to play (ie can they heal at range? do i need to be close, are there buffs to wait on, debuffs etc) I had to tell him that we needed the heals. It's nice to play your own way but when the team needs something blasted it's not often the blaster says, sorry i only use my secondaries. If you build/play a certain way that your team might be affected by please let them know. But if you have a power that is needed for the team USE it.

On a side note I was on a team recently with a scrapper with 4 travel sets. I know again his biz. but when he only has one Defense power he is not much use to the group ( and a strain on the Defender).

So do your own thing but if you plan on teaming please let your team what to expect if it is not the "norm"

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10/04/05 13:57

Gon_Edain

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

If the point was that defenders should not be relying just on their secondaries and ignoring their primaries, then yes, I agree. However, I think more players need to keep in mind that healing is not the main focus of every defender primary.

10/04/05 14:23

KombatJesus

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

QUOTE

LOL! I like to wait right behind everyone instead of constantly following them as they break up. . .I will do a heal once where i stand if there is no tanker on board, otherwise im gonna heal near the tank, if ur not around. . .too bad for you. . .some players get the idea after the first heal. . .pwned

LOL@Doc Vengeance seeing the scrapper with 4 travel powers. . lmao

10/04/05 15:33

WarShadow

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

Nothing wrong with multipul travel powers my scrapper has 3 of em. But before I got my second and third travel powers I made sure my defenses were slotted up real well.

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10/04/05 15:44

KombatJesus

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

QUOTE

Nothing wrong with multipul travel powers my scrapper has 3 of em. But before I got my second and third travel powers I made sure my defenses were slotted up real well.

True, but you have defenses.

That other guy has 4 ways to get the heck outta dodge, but nothin that will insure his departure from the battle and not this life. I could see him using one of four travel powers right before an attack hits, only to be pwned by delayed damage in a feeble attempt at escape because he didn't have any defenses.

10/04/05 16:01

Triun

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

General rant:

Personally, I think when recruiting you should check a candidate's info for their powers list - see if they can heal or not, and if they can, if it's viable for them to heal on demand or not (someone using Dark Miasma can heal and rez, but only under certain conditions for example). Also, you may want to outline expectations ("Hi, we're making a team, can you help us with xyz?"). This is very helpful, especially since there's a lot of misunderstanding about what ATs are good at versus what they're expected to do (one Tank I ran with was usually asked to fill a Scrapper's role! He was very relieved that I wasn't expecting him to do damage output, just hoping for crowd control).

Also, keep in mind that a player has a style all their own, usually. In the past I've gotten very aggrivated with Tanks that don't have Taunt, but I'm getting less and less so, especially when I made my own tank who was being built to be a low level taxi of sorts (get to a mission site alive, and TP others there). Not traditional, perhaps, but still, very functional. My main (Psyte) is an Illusion/Empath healer, but I typically try to focus on healing and team bailouts (Group Invis, Flash and PA work wonders in that regard). I also try to be available for scouting, and again, transport (TP ally). I actually only got Flash when I hit level 24 (got flash, used my respec) - until then I was healing and doing spot support as needed (even beat a defender friend of mine in earning the Medic badge!).

One last thing - if you have a player that can heal (be it Empathy, Medicine, or via some other power), let them dictate the pace, and keep within their abilities! I've teamed with players who seemed to think that I was their 6-slotted SO personal healer/buffer/insurance policy, and ran off into suicidal situations. When they die, well, guess who got blamed? Sorry, but I've got a team to think about! Also, if my healing output (say, 25%-33% of your total hp) can't compete with the total damage output you're exposing yourself to (say, 100%-300% of your total hp), you had better not go wading in expecting me to bail you out. I might be able to tp you out, but that's no guarantee. I might get your dead body, but that's it.

10/04/05 16:05

Rael

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

Teams have, like a vast majority of good MMORPGs, have a "comfort zone" where it is comfortable to operate. While many (and I do mean many) players recognize how useful non-empathy defenders are, they do not consider them essential as part of a classic team makeup. All types (not getting into buffs/nerfs here) of Tankers can be used as an essential element in a team makeup, as can all Blasters, all Scrappers, and Controllers. However in terms of an essential Defender, some power sets are not considered essential. Again I said essential, not useful (we know they're useful). In terms of the comfort zone, this can be translated into other classes in other games and still hold true. It is because of this that people hold the above as rote. It falls under the premise of having a tank, damage dealer, crowd controller, and healer in a party. However using the common classifications, non-empathy defenders are considered "other". There is my Devil's Advocate for you.

Personally as an Empathy Defender, I seriously wish to the gods that teams would also have other defenders in the party as well. While it is true I keep the party alive, even in the worst of times, it surely is not considered easy. Sometimes if things are particularly tense it can almost become work. Force Fields/Sonic Fields help immensely to stave off damage. Kinetics buff the party, but also debuff the enemy as well (and to a noticable degree too). Storm Summoning has an utility belt of powers that are always used in combat. And let's not forget Radiation Emission, with Radiant Aura aside, has powers that are always in high demand.

All in all while Empathy will always be cried for, do not neglect the other defenders. They are a heck of a lot more useful than you think. They are also, as some of you know, a heck of a lot of fun to play.

10/04/05 17:53

tk0091

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

mmmm...defenders must heal...I disagree with that. I like to make concept characters and my stab as a defender was dark/dark defender. I considered my role on the team a secondary healer as the dark heal is ok. I considered my main job to slow the enemies so the tanks,scrappers and blasters could take care of them. Then id perform the occasional heal when needed and the occasional blast when needed. Worked out pretty well on the teams i was on

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10/04/05 18:34

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

Gon_Edain made a really good point and I have to agree. It doesn't matter how a Defender defends. As a former Marine I was always taught the the best defense is better firepower then your enemy. Debuffs definitely accomplish this.

Thanks for giving me a new perspective because I never actually comtemplated alternate roles for Defenders.

10/04/05 23:50

Protusion

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Re: Defenders who don't defend

QUOTE

This is my post....didn't realize that my login timed-out...

10/04/05 23:52

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