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Nihil Zarathustra
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I've actually posted about this around several topics but i think it deserves its own thread since i'm really curious as to the real reason behind it and what you all think.
So we all know GW has an ebay and gold for $$$ trading problem. But can ANet really do anything about it or is it out of their reach of control. For example, say i buy gold from a guy on Ebay (doesnt matter how much or how much i pay) can ANet track me down and really ban my account for it even if it does violate their terms? Since e-bay is in itself a seperate company and trading gold for money through their company or any other similar source like the ads we have here, i did not violate the terms and conditions of ebay or that company and what i did was a valid buisness transaction. When i then recieve the gold from the player in GW i recieve it through a valid trade method. I trade 0 gold and he trades me X amount. This also does not violate the ANet policy. The only way that ANet could ban my account is to extend their policy into ebay but can they actually dictate what i can and cannot do with my property? Since all items i pick up become solely usably by me and not ANet or any other character other than the ones i create then doesn't the item or gold classify as my property even though it exists on a server in the same way that money can exist in a bank but i can do whatever i want with it?
So my question is:
Is it that ANet cannot ban players for using ebay and similar gold or items for $$ trading companys because it is outside the range of their power since they are a seperate and legitimate compay? or is it that ANet simply does not have the resources to crack down on these individuals?
The Official Self Proclaimed Unofficial Cynic of Gameamp
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| 11/19/05 15:41 |
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Nihil Zarathustra
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This sucks i just took the time to research this and the topic about it pops up below it. Bah i hate my luck..still my question hasn't been discussed yet i don't think so it's still worth looking into.
The Official Self Proclaimed Unofficial Cynic of Gameamp
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| 11/19/05 15:43 |
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cswella
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I don't think Anet can do anything about it, since it's your money and according to the government, gold in GW isn't a product. So legally, people are only paying real money to sellers. There's no basis for banning people.
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| 11/19/05 15:50 |
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einyalynn
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a good primer on online gaming and the law (US law generally) can be found at:
http://www.nyls.edu/pages/3607.asp
the primer is the blue one on the right.
This is a link to State of Play II, a yearly conference hosted by New York Law School.
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| 11/19/05 16:09 |
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Nihil Zarathustra
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That is a very good source and +cred for it however it doesn't answer the key question. What happens when the EULA of one company extends into the use of another company that may not agree to the EULA of the first company or may not have the same restrictions as the first company. To tell a a player that they cannot use ebay for trading gold and items for money is to tell ebay that these players cannot sell their goods (or services if they say they are paying for time) through ebay. Although selling gold for money is against the EULA of ANet, the EULA of ANet affects the buisness of ebay in which case a conflict of interests occurs. That is what i am wondering about.
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| 11/19/05 16:21 |
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binarydumb
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@einyalynn:
+5 credit for that information. It was quite a read. Lots of Info and I do like knowing a bit more about the EULA and its extensions into the 'real world'.
I would like to see where this all will lead to. My co-worker and his buddy (who's a lawyer) are contantly debating this topic with my other co-workers that play Guild Wars.
I usually stay clear of this discussion but always sit in and listen.
Waiting to see.............
CHEERS !
  
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| 11/19/05 17:29 |
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Nihil Zarathustra
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Here is some food for thought:
by searching for Guild Wars on ebay i recieved 1285 responses. Most of these are large groups consisting of 5-10 responses a piece. Now assume each large group advertises 24/7 trade online and some 8000+ purchases as advertised by the ads here on gameamp. To do this assume an average player plays an 8 hour shift farming (this excludes MMO sweatshops and whatnot) and makes about 100k. So to sell the max you would need 5 players plus several delivery people to delever the gold upon purchase. Say for the sake of argument you need 1:1 so for every 5 famers there are 5 delivery people. So we have 8000 * 10 * 1285 = 102,800,000 people who have used one of those companies through ebay or not to buy gold. That means in order to ban these people ANet has to cancel roughly (1285 * 10) 12850 accounts from ebay by banning accounts. Meaning ebay loses 12850 customers because of the EULA of GW. This brings me back to my original question. Is there a conflict of interest between ebay and GW that prevents ANet from banning accounts despite its EULA? And if it does ban the accounts of 102,800,000 (rough estimate mind you) people then how much profit will ANet lose for the sake of fair play?
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| 11/19/05 18:17 |
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lani
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| QUOTE | | So we have 8000 * 10 * 1285 = 102,800,000 people who have used one of those companies through ebay or not to buy gold. |
With 1,000,000 accounts at the end of October 2005, that'd mean an average use of 102 times per player. As I haven't done it, that means the average is even higher. Ehm, could it possibly be these corporations are, I hate to say it, but maybe they're fibbing just a bit?
Hmmm....
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MMORPG (Acheivement): Miserable Malcontents Online Rehashing Past Glories
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| 11/19/05 19:10 |
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Mann
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Click here and read, please.
I myself am doing an investigation behind this. It takes a LOT of work for Anet to stop this as well, because there are so many people who do it. "It" as in farming for gold, items, and selling it online. Remember that this is all over the WORLD. Not just in one specific place. You got places from Korea, Japan, Philippines, Australia, America, etc. who do this. Remember that one point of the updates was trying to nerf the farming enough to discourage others from doing this.
Also remember that Guild Wars doesn't have this problem. Any MMORPG that's popular out there has a part in it.
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| 11/19/05 19:20 |
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Mann
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| QUOTE | | I don't think Anet can do anything about it, since it's your money and according to the government, gold in GW isn't a product. So legally, people are only paying real money to sellers. There's no basis for banning people. |
Ermm....
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| 11/19/05 19:21 |
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Melon
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They could do what Shadowbane did, tell ebay not to list the gold or items. Was flooded with gold because there were so many bugs then. Then one day everything was gone =)
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| 11/19/05 19:26 |
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NecroRebel
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| QUOTE | | I don't think Anet can do anything about it, since it's your money and according to the government, gold in GW isn't a product. So legally, people are only paying real money to sellers. There's no basis for banning people. |
In the EULA, it specifically says that you can't use real-world money to buy in-game items or gold. By doing this, you are violating the EULA, which is an offense punishable by, among other things, being banned.
I think theoretically you could "give" other people money for "no reason" and they could "give" you items or gold as an "unrelated gift," but this is pushing it quite a bit and I seriously doubt that you could get away with it. If it just happened that you gave a company, with which you had no prior contact, $79.99 US and a representative of this company just happened to give you 1000k gold ingame at the same time, pretty much anyone would call that an exchange.
But anyway, since buying gold on Ebay is against the EULA, you can get banned for it. Having auctions on GameAmp is different, though, because we trade in-game money for in-game items, even though we arrange those trades outside of the game, but paying "real" money for it is definately against the EULA.
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| 11/19/05 19:30 |
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squall_freak
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....headache
"I could be wrong" -Oliver deBurrows
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| 11/19/05 19:35 |
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Mann
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Bingo to necro.
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| 11/19/05 20:11 |
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lani
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Whoops. Level 9 triples your credit votes. I was just getting used to double. The post was good, but not 15 Cred :-)
Ah well. Looks like people are shooting the 'messenger of bad news' already, so see it as a buffer.
Whoops 2, was going to say something on topic, but pressed "Add Reply" by accident (don't ask).
| QUOTE |
So my question is:
Is it that ANet cannot ban players for using ebay and similar gold or items for $$ trading companys because it is outside the range of their power since they are a seperate and legitimate compay? or is it that ANet simply does not have the resources to crack down on these individuals?
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A bit of all.
For one, they seem to be concentrating on dealing with the suppliers in stead of the users. This works well in with Drugs, so why not this.
Also, there's some nasty tricks that the gatherers pull so they're very difficult to track.
Finally, ArenaNet has to have some evidence that the user buying gold is actually paying in real life for the gold he's being given. Yes, if those two transactions are almost simultaneous, then it would most likely hold up in court.
That'd be a civil case of a banned player against ArenaNet, trying to get his account re-established as ArenaNet won't sue you for buying.
The thing is, without that civil court ArenaNet has very little chance of "proving" the transaction. They do not have access to your financial transactions. So all they have is circumstantial evidence. They couldn't even claim that your were being "given" cash by a known Seller, as that would raise the question of why they allow known Sellers on the game then.
See, it's much more practical, better said impractical to try to rid GW of the Gatherers and Sellers than it is to punish those who Buy. The numbers if anything are smaller on the Selling end.
Ok, that was the on-topic bit.
P.s. The circumstancial evidence is enough to get you banned.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
MMORPG (Roleplaying): Mostly Men Online Role-Playing Girls
MMORPG (Acheivement): Miserable Malcontents Online Rehashing Past Glories
MMORPG (PvP): Macho Men Obviously Really Prefer Griefing
MMORPG (itemization): Misers May Obfuscate Recently Purchased Gold
MMORPG (Social): Virtual Worlds with Virtual Wealth and achievements, but with Real People with Real Feelings.
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| 11/19/05 20:18 |
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binarydumb
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| QUOTE | | QUOTE | | I don't think Anet can do anything about it, since it's your money and according to the government, gold in GW isn't a product. So legally, people are only paying real money to sellers. There's no basis for banning people. |
Ermm.... |
He's right, Mann.
I came across a court case that was a person vs an ebay seller of 'virtual' money. The buyer lost the case since, according to the judge, no REAL property was involved except for the dollars spent. So a refund was order and nothing else.
The point being made I thing is the virtual vs real and How far can the EULA extend.
A non related case was against Blizzard during Warcraft (RTS) hey day. They were fined by the state supreme court and disallowed to repeat their practice of validating account while online by getting the user info on the game, which resided on the gamer's PC. It was about 10 years agao and was a shock to me. Since I thought they would win due to the fact that their software was being proliferated all over the web back then.
Anyways, cheers.
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| 11/19/05 20:34 |
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cswella
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Don't give me + credit for this post, but I just wanted to know why I am down to -10 on my earlier post. I stated, 'I don't think', meaning I don't exactly know, but I'm assuming on the basis of that court case that Binarydumb had also heard of. All I wanna know is, did i offend someone with my choice of words? Do I need to clarify something or am I clear but off-base?
Please let me know, if it's something offensive, I want to try to avoid it next time.
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| 11/19/05 20:42 |
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lani
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| QUOTE |
I came across a court case that was a person vs an ebay seller of 'virtual' money. The buyer lost the case since, according to the judge, no REAL property was involved except for the dollars spent. So a refund was order and nothing else.
The point being made I thing is the virtual vs real and How far can the EULA extend.
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As I recall, the main problem was that it was filed as a case of theft, which indeed it wasn't. Had it been filed as a case of fraud however, things would've been different as the "seller" failed to comply with his part of the deal, i.e. do the service of giving the buyer such and so ammount.
As I understand US civil law (always a bit murky for a foreigner) the buyer couldn't sue again under a fraud case, as that would be slander or character assassination or some thing along those lines.
| QUOTE |
A non related case was against Blizzard during Warcraft (RTS) hey day. They were fined by the state supreme court and disallowed to repeat their practice of validating account while online by getting the user info on the game, which resided on the gamer's PC. It was about 10 years agao and was a shock to me. Since I thought they would win due to the fact that their software was being proliferated all over the web back then.
Anyways, cheers. |
That was a breach of privacy case I believe.
Since then, rumors of similar privacy invasions by Blizzard keep cropping up. BTW, is it ten years already? I thought seven or eight. Damn, I'm getting old :-(
MMORPG (Roleplaying): Mostly Men Online Role-Playing Girls
MMORPG (Acheivement): Miserable Malcontents Online Rehashing Past Glories
MMORPG (PvP): Macho Men Obviously Really Prefer Griefing
MMORPG (itemization): Misers May Obfuscate Recently Purchased Gold
MMORPG (Social): Virtual Worlds with Virtual Wealth and achievements, but with Real People with Real Feelings.
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| 11/19/05 20:44 |
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lani
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| QUOTE | | Please let me know, if it's something offensive, I want to try to avoid it next time. |
Ok, first up. I didn't credit you either way, on either post :-)
But I did notice your first post being a bit short on argumentation and a bit swift in jumping to a conclusion.
Still no reason to give you actual negative credit. You just stated your idea/opinion and didn't substantiate that (much).
If we all were to start discrediting people for that MrNavyGoodBar wouldn't long hold on to that record of lowest Credibilty Rating ever at this site. The Update threads alone consist of 90% opions with even less argumentation.
Ah well. Submit a nice Screenie or two and you'll be ahead of yourself again :-)
MMORPG (Roleplaying): Mostly Men Online Role-Playing Girls
MMORPG (Acheivement): Miserable Malcontents Online Rehashing Past Glories
MMORPG (PvP): Macho Men Obviously Really Prefer Griefing
MMORPG (itemization): Misers May Obfuscate Recently Purchased Gold
MMORPG (Social): Virtual Worlds with Virtual Wealth and achievements, but with Real People with Real Feelings.
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| 11/19/05 20:50 |
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cswella
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Okay, thank you Lani! I probably was too short in explaining what I meant, ah well...
lol, I just read and reread some of the posts here, and I realized what I am stupid at, Law and Math. Some of this stuff is just going over my head. I don't know what I've gotten myself into!
(And yes, my major in college is Liberal Arts...)
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| 11/19/05 21:04 |
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Nihil Zarathustra
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Right..but my question still stands... can the EULA extend so far as to reduce the buisness of another company because players chose to use this product? What i'm saying is that if ANet say went to ebay and saw which players were doing the exchange and when and then banned them on that basis is there not an invasion of privacy where the ANet staff penalize players for using a company whos terms of use do not prohibit gold for money trading. Furthermore, if the impact on the profit of ebay is great enough does ebay not have a case saying that ANet through its EULA is forcefully reducing the buisness of ebay?
The Official Self Proclaimed Unofficial Cynic of Gameamp
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| 11/19/05 21:27 |
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Mann
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Reducing the business of Ebay? Ebay's business is auctioning and selling items. They originally had no part with Guild Wars in the first place. Ebay themselves do not sell gold, but the people who make the gold sell it on Ebay.
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| 11/19/05 22:07 |
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Nihil Zarathustra
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Right. In order to sell something on ebay you have to pay a price to put up the advertisement. If ANet bans the people selling gold because they found them on ebay then their EULA contradicts the EULA of ebay and a conflict of interests occurs. When they ban all the people in the companies that sell gold ebay loses customers and profit because these people no longer have the ability to sell gold and will not sell through ebay.
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| 11/19/05 23:06 |
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Dracorian
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Wow people...to Ebay or not to Ebay....Hmmmm.
Ok, First, if Anet wanted to track down all the gold sellers accounts (in game account that is) on ebay it would not be that hard. Buy the smallest amount of gold you can from ebay, meet the delivery person in Guild wars, you now have the account.
Problem with this is, they can buy a new cd key, make a new account and keep selling / delivering gold.
If people are rich enough and dumb enough to spend actual money to get fake money, let them. what do they gain?? all the armor is the same defense. All the weapons do the same damage. All the skills do the same for all classes across the board.
So I see no gain to spend real money to get fake gold to buy fake items in a virtual reality game thats based on fiction. If they want FOW armor (so they feel elite) and the only way to get it is spend real cash to buy the gold let them.
I have made money selling the fake items back when I played D2. I sold a windforce bow on ebay for $260.00 and laughed like crazy that I had found a new way to explain playing games to my girlfriend. She ended up with some nice jewelry because of it too. I went on to make enough real money selling D2 stuff that I had to claim it on my taxes. boy was that a mess!
America, and the world is full of enovative people. To them I say \"I salute you\" I disagree with the \"sweat shops\" but it is a fact of life. If there is a demand for some thing, there will always be a supplier for it as well.
When I first started playing Guild Wars the first 10k I made was to a guy that paid me for dancing with no armor on with my elemenalist. If Anet is going to crack down on anything, it should be the offensive launguage and sexual acts that people do in the game. Its pretty bad if you go AFK for a few in town and come back to somebody molesting your avatar while telling everybody on local chat what they would do to you in real life.
I hope I have not offended you all with my opinion, sorry if I did. and If I did Offend you tell me why, I like a good debate. who knows....maybe you can change my mind and get me on your side.
Dracorian say's If she's worth the ride, she's worth my time...
\"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming ~ WOW, what a ride!!!\"
\"Long ago when men cursed and beat the ground with sticks, it was called witchcraft. Today it's called golf\"
I've decided to dedicate my body to a medical
school, and just before I die, I'm going
to swallow a little plastic toy. That way,
the medical student who cuts me open will
get a nice surprise. I just hope the other
medical students aren't sad because they
didn't get a toy with their cadaver, too.
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| 11/19/05 23:53 |
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Nihil Zarathustra
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It's a question of ethics and slight legality. Is it ethical to give yourself this advantage over other players and raise the prices effectivly forcing others to spend real money to compete? On one hand you can say that other players aren't my problem and let the government worry about sweatshops. On the other hand you can say that it's unfair to them. Then there is the long-term outlook. What will happen if prices continue to increase until they hit some peak value X and will i be able to afford that X without resorting to underhanded methods or ebay? Or if ANet cracks down on farming to retaliate against ebay how am i affected? On one hand it is the players fault for not being able to buy and sell on the other hand how will i be affected should ANet get affected by ebay?
The Official Self Proclaimed Unofficial Cynic of Gameamp
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| 11/20/05 00:03 |
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lani
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Ok, now I'm getting what you're on about.
ArenaNet accidentilly creates more revenue for eBay and then starts trying to do something about the Extreme Farming oging on, thereby possibly reducing revenue for eBay. Would eBay have a case? I think not. In order to sue, eBay would have to admit to this being a large profit loss for them.
Imagine you have a business which to a large extend is dependent on individuals using your services to trade on a daily basis. Now you're getting involved in a high profile case where you basically admit that your profits are also due to a large amoutn from money generated in sweat-shops arouned the world and people frauding sixteen year olds out of their cash. (About a third of these money-resellers does not seem to be above the occasional scam).
What you'd have to ask yourself as eBay would this, what does a case cost me in terms of PR and what do I get out of it in terms of a one-time fee? Do I want a one time fee or my continuous steday cashflow? Economists will tell that cashflow is preferable.
Also, they didn't sue "negligence" when other MMORPGS started petering out and eBay lost revenue. If you sue over patches, why not over letting the playing-community die out?
Btw, the money selling business was there before Guild Wars and is very likely to be there afterwards. If ArenaNet somehow manages to oust them from the game, they'll show up in Dark & Light, D&D online, Tabula Rasa and Lord of The Rings in no time. And they would still use eBay because they want to use eBay's system.
So to get back to the question, eBay would not sue, if they did, it'd be stupid and they don't have a case.
Probably the only way to get rid of the money and item sellers in the game is for ArenaNet to start supplying this service themselves, and do it cheaper. The problem is, that'd have an even greater effect on the economy by all estimates.
MMORPG (Roleplaying): Mostly Men Online Role-Playing Girls
MMORPG (Acheivement): Miserable Malcontents Online Rehashing Past Glories
MMORPG (PvP): Macho Men Obviously Really Prefer Griefing
MMORPG (itemization): Misers May Obfuscate Recently Purchased Gold
MMORPG (Social): Virtual Worlds with Virtual Wealth and achievements, but with Real People with Real Feelings.
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| 11/20/05 06:41 |
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binarydumb
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| QUOTE | | It's a question of ethics and slight legality. snip |
Personally, this is a can of worms. In my very honest opinion through experience, ethics has almost no basis for legality-and vice versa.
There are lots of goings on in the US that alone lead me to further state this case. But I will not get into that.
Ethics and Legality are two separate and distinctive issues. They cannot be used as a basis for each other.
It, I believe, is one of the toughest compromises man has had to make.
But, that's just my opinion.
@Lani,
Yes, I do believe it has been 10 years. Aged, as my mom used to say, is when your eldest reaches 16. Sigh, then I was there 2 years ago. /poutes
Cheers to all.
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| 11/20/05 07:32 |
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thebutcher
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I ve had some ingame expierience with someone(a chinese) who sold me alot(15-20) unidentified max dmg golden hammers. It turned out that he is in some kind of organisation to sell stuff for their "leader" and get money for that stuff and give that to their leader. They get real money in return. He said that it was a good backup for his primary job as teacher. But he has stopped playing now cause his boss decided to play another game , so all his people have to play that game to to get money . I think this is such a company that offers you GW money for real money. They collect the money ingame with a team of merchants. Who get payed (not much i guess) to sell stuff ingame.
I just came out by asking him from where he got al those hammers. I know their are other people in the ascalon international district that are involved with this.
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| 11/20/05 09:15 |
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Balthamos
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| QUOTE | | Ethics and Legality are two separate and distinctive issues. They cannot be used as a basis for each other. |
From what I have come to understand laws are in place to keep the ethicality of society together. As not every person makes ethical judgements that represent the ideas of society. So laws are almost "Standardised Eithics" In my opinion.
You can't expect people to behave ethically in a game. They will just say either "Mind your own business" along with various profanity (possibly) or "It's only a game". Ignoring the argument that they are hindering the play of others.
Some people will manage to not believe about the sweatshops just so they can feel justified that they are not doing any harm to anybody.
Also, onsidering HUGE amounts of gold really have little benifit (especially for FoW armour) let people waste there money on something that is "Only a game".
Edgwalkers is coming.
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| 11/20/05 11:44 |
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