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Nogame
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As mentioned in the news post the 4.5 Patch is almost upon us and will be hitting the servers tomorrow on January 12th.
So what are your feelings on how the patch will effect the gameplay?
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| 01/11/06 15:48 |
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Nogame
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I feel the largest change is the -4 penalty to hit while moving with melee weapons. Until this, I felt the game had a very enriched combat system that was unlike any other MMO to date. However now they are adding a -4 penalty to moving melee attacks which brings it into the realm of a stationary combat system.
I obviously haven't got in to the game to see how this change "feels". There is a possibility that even though there is a penalty, it wouldn't feel as painful as I might think. We'll see, but either way, thats my two cents.
Mason 'Nogame' Ambrose
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| 01/11/06 15:49 |
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EnPsyane74
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I'll have to play the changes before I can really comment on them. I'm afraid that the -4 will dangerously dork up combat. I hope that they rescind that shortly after the patch is out.
I'm also afraid that the beefing up of the quests - particularly bosses - will ruin the few quests that can be soloed. Even if the Devs want to ignore it ( and they have ) there is a huge demand for some solo content. I've found some - and I hope I don't loose the opportunity.
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| 01/11/06 17:00 |
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lani
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I think the warrior types are going to feel this the most. Us spellcaster types are already used to being stunned with surprise when we actually hit a CR 0.25 Kobold with our staves :-)
But I concur, I'd have to 'feel' it in action first.
It might not be all bad though, the bad guys sneaking past your shield have the same issue and I consider victory to be out-living your enemy in the fight, not killing him in under x seconds :-). Now what what I wonder most is, what will happen if you stay in place but turn with the enemy circling you? Logic or realism would say you don't have the -4 bonus then.
| QUOTE | | # Lowered xp bonus for completing a mission for the first time to 25% but added a completion bonus for the first time on hard of 25%. |
This one puzzles me. It seems to be to stimulate playing Quests at Hard level. Now, I may be running with the wrong crowds in Beta, but that's what nearly every teamleader I joined up with locked the dungeons at. So I'm not sure how much stimulation this needs. Your thoughts and experiences?
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| 01/11/06 19:25 |
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Redweaver
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My first post here, so be gentle.
I've been beta testing since September and have had a good time with it. I've seen many changes, some I've liked, some not so much. I feel the game is too combat-centric, and that combat is too melee-centric...and it's been this way since I joined.
-4 to hit while moving in melee combat may not be the best solution, but anything that cuts down on the click-spamming, circle-strafing, bunny-hopping, zergfest combat is no bad thing. This change is perhaps heavy handed, but may have been the best implementation for their game engine. I'm not a programmer, so I don't know the technical aspects of widening attack arcs, speeding up mob turning, or other AI alterations...all I know is that my 20+ years of experience with the PnP game told me combat the way it stood before these sorts of changes (it also used to be much, much faster to swing your sword) felt very, very wrong. This isn't Counterstrike, or Street Fighter, or any other totally "twitch skill" reliant game. I don't want turn-based, but I definitly want combat to feel rhythmic and tactical. I feel the focus of combat in DDO should be on the use of spells, special abilities, and well timed attacking / blocking, not on moving / circle strafing / bunny hopping. This sort of change is exactly what's needed to get the twitchiness of the game under control.
Ranged attacks and casting are inferior to melee combat with the 4.0 build (and all previous builds). I don't feel too much further "nerfing" of melee is needed, now I feel ranged and casting need "buffed".
There are a lot of very vocal people on the beta boards all arguing that their "vision" of the game is the right one, that all others are idiots for not agreeing with them, and that upcoming changes are retarded. I feel that changes are needed, and I'm happy to play under the new conditions before I begin badmouthing anything. The Devs have done a great job of listening to their testers, I think (feather fall is soon to no longer allow you to superjump, the earth elemental pets will no longer be summonable in public areas, melee combat was slowed down, xp rewards have been adjusted, quests such as Miller's Debt have been altered to remove fast xp exploits, soon Tempest Spine will be similarly adjusted, special attacks like trip and sunder have been sped up to be more useful and user friendly, adding Postern Gate Wilds as a potential solo-grind zone...all these and more are issues brought up by testers which directly changed the game).
Are there still issues? Yes, many. Will something be done with them? I think so, given some time and faith.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 01/11/06 23:18 |
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Phedre_D
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Hi Redweaver, welcome to GameAmp! Great you found your way to our boards. Here you don't have to worry about being flamed, so say and ask all you want.
And thanks for your post. I am only playing beta for a few days now, but from what I have seen so far I think I agree with what you have said. It looks indeed very melee intensive, and maybe even quick click button smashing intensive. Although I like it is different from all other MMORPGs, it should not become be the center point. I have my PS2 for that. If it becomes too much of a skill game it will attrack more an xp grinding crowd than a role playing adventuring crowd, which would be a pity. But we'll see. I will play it one way or the other anyway :)
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| 01/12/06 05:37 |
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uncus
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Haven't been in yet today to try changes, but the -4 to hit for attacking when moving [without proper feats - Mobility and Spring Attack, I think] is definitely needed to cut the circle-strafers off.
Removing Invis potions and wands from vendors is probably a good idea, also to cut down on exploits/zergers. I didn't read that Invis Scrolls would be removed, however, so UMD rogues would still be able exploit this...
OT but, I wish they would look at scrolls - as long as you have that class, you should be able to use a scroll from that class [they should add an arcane-failure type roll based on character/scroll level to using them is all].
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| 01/12/06 10:50 |
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lani
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Well, the servers are down now for the update.
They estimate they'll be up and running again by 6PM EST, which means midnight for me :-(
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| 01/12/06 11:17 |
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EnPsyane74
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I'm going to seriously test this new patch. I'm going to wipe all my characters on the Kundarak server ( never played much there anyway ) and try to get a feel on how the new material works. I'm also going to try out the races - Warforged particularly. If they have fixed some of the WF's drawbacks & made the docents look palatable ( till now they've mostly sucked ) I will be more than happy. Warforged is my favorite Eberron race - and I hate them in DDO because of all the changes made to them.
I'm nervous about this patch tho. Giving the players new and harsher penalties while beefing up the bad-guys seems like a very poor move. Personally, I think that they should have done one *OR* the other - not both at once.
Severs should be back up at 3pm EST. That's about noon for me, and that's if the update goes smooth for once. I'll test as much as I can and report back with my findings.
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| 01/12/06 11:41 |
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Redweaver
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Uncus mentioned Use Magic Device. I think that skill needs to be given back as sole domain of rogues and bards. Palidins should not be able to use wands of fireball, etc. UMD is very overpowered right now, and mostly because everyone can spend points in it. I think a d20 roll for failure chance would be an appropriate reduction in power as well.
Another of my biggest complaints related to any and all player class nerfing: Why don't mobs follow the same rules?
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 01/12/06 13:21 |
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Nogame
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Red, you've made some great points there. I could easily see that Wizards and Ranged attackers get the short end of the stick when it comes to combat and perhaps the reason it stung so bad for me is simply because it directly affects my character.
Though, I will say, anything that adds 'skill' into combat that isn't seen in other MMO's, I wholeheartedly welcome. Some may argue that it isn't that skillful to circle strafe and attack but I'll be damned if a great deal of the people in pickup groups can't grasp the concept.
I do feel that the melee combat was different then the other mmo's and adds a new complexity to monster encounters. By taking that away I'm afraid there may one less unique feature to brag about come launch. I understand balance concerns, but I'll be damned if it wasn't fun and interesting to do.
Mason 'Nogame' Ambrose
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http://www.gameamp.com/Nogame
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| 01/12/06 15:17 |
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lani
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I'm not convinced yet that it'll be the death of straving, it's a trade-off due to the attack bonus on hitting from behind. Granted you'd hit less often, but that way atleast I can get a bolt or arrow in :-)
Btw, it's 16:30 EST and they're still down, so I think their 6PM estimate was a good one.
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| 01/12/06 15:35 |
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Redweaver
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They haven't removed the ability to move during combat. The fast and furious action will still be there. You just now have to consider whether the bonus to defense gained by circling and strafing are worth the tradeoff of lowered accuracy. You can either get better offense or better defense, you can no longer just have both handed to you because you happen to be good at circle strafing.
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 01/12/06 16:18 |
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EnPsyane74
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I also read on the Beta boards that if you use the Walk button while moving in combat - you will still be able to move w/o the penalty. I'm not sure what the default key is for Walk - but I will find out and probably bind it to something more convenient. It also seems like a way to make the new penalty more palatable.
If this works - I can support it wholeheartedly. Yes, I can certainly move in combat and still hit my target. I have real-life experience in swordplay, and I know for a fact that if a stationary target gets hit more. But... I can't run at blazing speed all the time & expect to hit.
So, one of the first characters I create in this new Post-Patch world will be a fighter. I want to see if Walk works for the close up stuff, and switch to Run when I need to put distance between me & my enemy or when the fight stops. If it works - I'll also submit a How-To as a tip here on the site.
Should be interesting... now if they'd just hurry up with the patch. hehehehe
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| 01/12/06 17:17 |
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lani
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Update on the servers:
They're alive!!!!
Race ya to Kundarak on three. One..., two...
Bye.......
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| 01/12/06 17:20 |
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EnPsyane74
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Updating now.
This is one mutha of a big patch. heheheh
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| 01/12/06 17:47 |
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Phedre_D
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Hmm. After it finished the the download I got weird error mesages that I could only start via the launcher (which I did of course). So I decided to reboot my PC. And when I came back up, I could lamost log in. But then the servers went down. I guess they have a minor issue.
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| 01/12/06 18:37 |
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lani
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Don't be upset Phe, I got the message that I needed to update my .Net framework. I've since learned that there's a physical error on my Disk, right where that update insists on being installed. Running an overnight defrag now in hopes I get it moved :-(
You'll probably be back in the game way before me.
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| 01/12/06 18:42 |
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Phedre_D
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Bummer, Lani. I hope defrag can solve it. Why does hardware always need to break at the most unopportune time?
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| 01/12/06 18:45 |
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EnPsyane74
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I think that error is because even though the patch is ready for download - Turbine has not yet made the worlds available to players yet. They said earlier that it'd be done around 8pm EST - so I'm going to wait until at least 9pm EST before I get worried.
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| 01/12/06 18:58 |
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Redweaver
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Click
Says ETA is 9:30 right now.
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 01/12/06 19:50 |
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EnPsyane74
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I hate the patch.
Hate, hate, hate, hate.
Well, it's not all bad. The graphics are over all much nicer on items and equipment. It's good to see that Warforged start out with some kind of armor for non-arcane classes. The particle effects on the elemental weapons are beyond cool - fire-wreathed flame weapons/frost-puffs from the frost weapons/dripping acid weapons/I assume the shock looks good too - but I forgot to check.
However - as I feared - the changes made to the combat and the dungeons suck. They should have chosen one way to tweak the game, either give us combat penalties *or* beef up the mobs. Instead we have both - and I got my ass handed to me tonight. I was in a Level One dungeon - one they lowered from a Level Two in the patch. However, an Arcane Skeleton popped outta nowhere, emanating a negative-energy field that not only healed him - but gave me constant Con damage, AND he started hitting me with lightning bolts! WTF!
With this patch - I honestly think the Devs hate us. In tabletop D&D there is always a point where the DM starts to screw with the players for no better reason than the DM can screw with the players. I think Turbine has hit that point with DDO. They are the DM - and we are being screwed with. Hard.
If Turbine does not change things soon - I will be sadly canceling my pre-order. But, I had zero fun tonight. Not a bit after I was done admiring the new art on display. These gameplay changes are just not fun. This is a game afterall, and if it's not fun - why play?
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| 01/13/06 06:56 |
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lani
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Oooh. That sounds nasty.
Couple of questions though.
At what difficulty level were you playing the Level 1 quest?
Was it a Solo or group quest?
And do keep in mind it's still Beta, they might tweak it back down before release. Devs honestly don't hate their (potential) customers. They can get a bit of tract on how to make the game enjoyable when they feel the need to nerf something that gets abused by a minority of players. "Panic nerfs" are a b*** :-/
Damn. I can't play it atm. My HD problems are chronical. Microsoft's .NET framework insists on installing itself over a faulty sector. Ugh, when will they make (copy, steal, anything) a decent file-system where you can simply designate sectors as "Do Not Use!" :-(
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| 01/13/06 08:33 |
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EnPsyane74
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This was a Level 1 quest on Normal. I shudder to think of what that thing would be like on higher difficulty levels. I'm not sure if it's meant to be a solo or a group quest - but till now I've almost exclusively soloed it. The most I've ever had was one other person grouping with me at a time to handle it. Which - is why I thought knocking it from a Level 2 dungeon as it was pre-patch down to a current Level 1 dungeon was appropriate. Until I saw the Skellie from hell. =/
And, while I know that the Devs don't hate us... they certainly don't seem to like us an awful lot. The difficulty levels are just insane at the moment -and the loot hardly worth the bother.
I know it's still in Beta - and this is why we test these things. I just hope that for once Turbine pays attention to what the Beta Testers have to say. Since I've joined the Beta - they've pretty much ignored the testers and said "we want the game to be the way it is - sorry," when they comment at all. I hope beyond hope that the game gets ironed out. Canceling my pre-order would be heart-wrenching for me to do. I love D&D - and have had an almost criminal ammount of fun till now. But, if this is the way the Devs want the game to be - I may need to rethink if I want the game.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 01/13/06 08:47 |
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lani
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Let's have an argument :-)
From what I've gathered so far, Turbine (admittedly not known for it's community relations) is heavily emphasizing the need for Team-play in this game. The whole setup is rigged so you'd preferably go in with as varied a group as possible including most, if not all professions. This is basically a central game concept, so not something they'd change because there's people wanting to solo. Up to now, and darn it I want to confirm this in game!, Beta players have shown a tangent to want to solo the Quests and as a result of that gravitate too heavily towards the "Tank" classes.
Now, personally I'm all in favour of an emphasize on team-played Quests, really I am. But I can also see why you'd want to do some things solo. From the notes on the patch i gathered that they've modified the Jungle area outside Stormreach to facilitate this. I used it with my Sorcerer as well when I was shy by 16XP to reaching my second Level and didn't want to have to do the Waterworks Quests again, which was all everybody wanted to do at that time.
So, basically what I'm saying is that despite Turbine's so-so people-skills when it comes to their communities, I think they're simply making the game more the way they intended, a must-have-party MMORPG :-)
I don't think that's a bad thing, but as I've lamented before, I can't verify my thoughts & opinions in game at the moment :-/
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| 01/13/06 08:56 |
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lani
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Woohoo! I got my client working again :-)
/dance
...while waiting for update to download :-/
| QUOTE | Server Downtime - Hotfix Today
Jan 13, 2006 10:30 EST The servers will be coming down at some point today for a Hotfix. We will update you as soon as we know more details. |
Maybe they heard you EnPsyane74 :-)
With my luck, they'll go down ten seconds before I finish my download.
And I would like to take this opportunity to promote the boot disk that saved my (pc's) butt: Hiren's all in one Das Boot boot disk
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| 01/13/06 10:36 |
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Redweaver
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Took a group of 5th and 6th levels into House Kundarak to check out the fixed quests from the Everfull Flagon. Group consisted of 2 fighters, a bard, a rogue, a cleric, and myself, a wizard.
I asked my teammates several times in each adventure (we did all 5) and not once did anyone say anything negative about the -4 penalty. They didn't even notice it. Combat was just as fast as it has always been. They still moved about. I watched them use shields to block, tumble, attack, strafe around. No problems with the penalty at all. We were still just as effective in combat as we have been before the patch, not one melee character felt "gimped" by it in any way.
After the group broke up, I logged on my 3rd level fighter. Went into butcher's path solo and had no problems. Same thing, I didn't even notice the penalty. I still moved around, strafed, dodged attacks, blocked, tumbled (in full plate no less...glad I spent those skill points) and still dropped monsters left and right with no problem whatsoever. I tried stick and move tactics. I tried standing my ground and timing my blocks. I tried circle strafing (just to see if it could still be done). Not a single problem with melee combat. Everything still functioned just fine, and I was still effective at killing mobs.
Combat feels great. It's definitely getting a nice flow to it. Feels rhythmic, tactical, stylish, and generally less frenzied.
Sorry to disagree with you, but I love the changes, and had no problem whatsoever with them. Neither I nor any of the melees I grouped with even noticed the penalty...and I was playing solo, so the penalty should have seemed magnified.
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 01/13/06 13:22 |
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EnPsyane74
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I don't mind being disagreed with - that's all part of the fun. :)
And I know that Turbine is making a Party-Emphasis game. I support that approach, too. However - there is a constant and steady request from a variety of people ( not just the same few trying to grind their point ) for more solo content. After level one, I always put up my LFG tag and play as a group. However, with this patch - they've shown that once again they have zero interest in hearing what people say about the game. We beta testers are meant to find the bugs - and that's it. Our opinions don't mean jack when it comes to content.
This quest is also right after the newbie area - and this is before most of the newbs have the "must group to live" mentality beaten into them. It's the second adventure players will see in that area. Hell, even the solo-intended "Miller's Quest" that you are force-fed into after the solo area has become a suicide mission if you solo. Maxed out Fighters are not hitting the Iron Defenders on less than a natural 20 while stationary. I know - I was playing a maxed out Fighter. On the Beta Boards a guy took his 5th level character to investigate the Arcane Skeleton I was talking about & got destroyed. If a 5th level had no chance - not even a full party of 1st levels would do any better.
I also know that the higher level chars don't feel the sting as badly. My 6th level Pali was pretty much same-old-same-old. When I first logged on, I did a quick quest with a group & another one solo. However, the patch is crippling new characters. Yeah, once you build up your Base Attack Bonus - the -4 means less. Before you get to that point, however the -4 hurts in amazing ways.I've been playing this game since November - and I've never had my ass handed to me like it was last night, even on higher level missions. I know they wanted to make it more of a challenge - but there is a fine line between challenging and abuse. And I think Turbine gleefully leapt over that line.
If I, a person who knows what he's doing both in terms of DDO mechanics and the 3.5 rules, feels like the low levels have become overly abusive... how will people who are new to both feel? I'm very worried that the abuse now built into the lower-level missions will put people off the game & they won't stick around for their characters to get to the point where they are able to overcome the new handicaps. I know you guys don't know me very well yet - but I hope I've at least demonstrated I have a lot of love for this game & for D&D as a whole. I *want* this game to be a hit - and I *want* to be in there playing my heart out. But after last night's play... I was left thinking that my time would be better spent doing something else.
Lastly, there is not a whole hell of a lot of time for Turbine to tweak before retail - no matter what the calender says. There needs to be time to ship the final Gold version to make the copies of the game, those games need to be packaged into boxes, and then those boxes need to be shipped to retail outlets. That takes a good amount of time - two to three weeks. The game goes live on Feb 28th, and pre-orders will have a jump on that. So, that leaves about two or three weeks to adjust the game. Considering how long it takes to adjust content on a scale like this - I am not so sure that there will be a lot of changes between 4.5 and retail. I'm frankly nervous and hoping I did not waste my money by pre-ordering.
This is admittedly a first impression - but it's overwhelmingly negative for me. I'm glad to hear that you have a better time, RedWeaver. I hope that I come around to your view. But, we will all be having to start over at retail. And, if the early adventures are still the way they were last night - then I'm not sure if I want to suffer through them again - let alone the dozens of times like Turbine intends.
I'll keep testing the game in the hopes I find my happy-place again.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 01/13/06 14:44 |
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EnPsyane74
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Oh, and the Walk key did nothing to offset the -4. First thing I tested & it was a crash & burn. :)
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| 01/13/06 14:51 |
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lani
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Well, you certainly put forth a well founded argument :-)
The thing is, there's this shrill contrast to what you were experiencing last night and what I am today. I've not found anyone complaining about the patch at all. I did get the impression that I was more of a full party member as a Sorcerer than before. But this may also be because for once I wasn't in a group full of people doing certain quests for the umpteemth time and letting me tag along to repair Warforged.
We did a threesome of the Leaking Dinghy and two of the Awkward Lobster ones without any real hitches except the Cleric being better suited for a non-healing class. He kept forgetting :-)
Completely off-topic:
My characters always appear in their underwear during selection. Is that "normal" or just my usual luck?
I'm sticking with female characters for the time being though :-)
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| 01/13/06 16:09 |
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