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Starion
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So do we think the Wow PvP crew will get the idea behind our sacred game, or will they come and have a look and decide its not for them ?.
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| 01/22/06 12:29 |
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EnPsyane74
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If having PvP in a game is a *must* for them - then yes, they will hate DDO. Frankly, I enjoy not having PvP in the game and consider it to be a huge point in DDO's favor.
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| 01/22/06 12:39 |
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thejeni
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| QUOTE | | So do we think the Wow PvP crew will get the idea behind our sacred game, or will they come and have a look and decide its not for them ?. |
I agree w/ EnPsyane on this one... I think if they are really into the PvP they will take one look at the FAQ and decide it isn't for them
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| 01/22/06 14:06 |
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Redweaver
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The day they put PvP into DDO is the day I personally stop playing.
There's already a metric arse-load of PvP games in the world. I will never understand why MMOers keep wanting the exact same thing in every MMO that comes out. Things are allowed to be different, and don't have to have what another game has just to be successful.
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 01/22/06 14:15 |
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lani
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I wouldn't go as far as sayin I would stop playing. It'd depend on the way it's implemented. The WoW & Lineage style of 'open PvP' otherwise known as "beat up the lower levels" isn't what I call fun, neither as a low nor a high level character. A PvP element lik in games as CoH/V and Guild Wars where the PvP is 'closed' I wouldn't mind seeing in DDO. That way people who want to participate in it can, and those who don't want to do it can leave it be. Choice is always good in my opinion.
On the WoW crowd coming over to DDO. No matter what the game description is or what the faq says, you'll always have a subsection of the community who didn't read up on what kind of game they were buying and rather than accept their mistake will play the game the way they think it was, bitching and moaning all the time about how the game doesn't 'work'. We'll get those in DDO as well I'm sure. No guarantee's that they're WoW players though. Might just as easily be one of the other monthly-subscription MMO's they come from. Hell, might even be a few Guild Wars players who failed to notice the subscription amongst them ;-)
MMORPG (Roleplaying): Mostly Men Online Role-Playing Girls
MMORPG (Acheivement): Miserable Malcontents Online Rehashing Past Glories
MMORPG (PvP): Macho Men Obviously Really Prefer Griefing
MMORPG (itemization): Misers May Obfuscate Recently Purchased Gold
MMORPG (Social): Virtual Worlds with Virtual Wealth and achievements, but with Real People with Real Feelings.
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| 01/22/06 17:56 |
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Redweaver
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Even with "closed" style PvP, as soon as you turn on PvP in a MMO, all the inevitable balances and nerfs begin. D&D 3.5 is not balanced for PvP. At low levels, melee classes are king, and will win almost all PvP fights. At high levels, casters come into more power than melee can ever hope to contend with. The only reason this works in D&D is because it is cooperative team based gameplay. Turn it from cooperative to competative, and you'll have forum fires big enough to melt the internet. Classes will have to be redesigned, nerfed, balanced, tweaked, fixed...in short, you'll have to remake the game, and it will no longer be D&D.
If there was anyway to turn on PvP without changing a single thing about a single class, then I'd be all for it. I don't think anyone here is niave enough to honestly think that players would be happy with the D&D classes as they stand in PvP.
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 01/22/06 18:35 |
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lani
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True, I'd forgotten how PvP play tends to accelerate the nerfing process in any game. Though I contest that nerfing is solely due to the domain of PvP play. Take Guild Wars, a very well balanced game from the outset, with both PvE and PvP play. The most elaborately bemoaned 'nerf' in that game was a PvE-gameplay nerf one where the Monster Ai became smart enough not to remain standing in an skill interrupting ten second lon Meteor shower, but in stead move out of it after four to six seconds. Admittedly, running out of an Area of Effect / Damage over Time spell did make the AI more intelligent than about a third of the human players :-)
What I'm trying to say is, that there's always weaknesses in any game system and there's always people playing those games who will exploit those weaknesses to the point of abuse. We've already seen Chest-runs cropping up and being nerfed in DDO, and that's during Beta. Well, that's one use for Beta's, so it's okay. But please believe me when I say that a PvE only system will also be nerfed, albeit later and less frequent than a system with PvP in it. That does tend to bring imbalances to light a lot quicker.
But I can appreciate DDO not becoming a PvP posessing game. It's a game style I personally find only marginably entertaining and, like you said the D&D Ruleset is not set up with PvP in mind, it would need to get a complete overhaul in order to 'work'. But then it would'nt be D&D anymore, now would it.
MMORPG (Roleplaying): Mostly Men Online Role-Playing Girls
MMORPG (Acheivement): Miserable Malcontents Online Rehashing Past Glories
MMORPG (PvP): Macho Men Obviously Really Prefer Griefing
MMORPG (itemization): Misers May Obfuscate Recently Purchased Gold
MMORPG (Social): Virtual Worlds with Virtual Wealth and achievements, but with Real People with Real Feelings.
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| 01/22/06 18:56 |
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Redweaver
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"Take Guild Wars, a very well balanced game from the outset, with both PvE and PvP play."
That's just it. GW was designed from the outset as a PvE and PvP game. It was made for it from the ground up. D&D wasn't. The amount of change needed to make PvP fair would make it not D&D anymore.
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 01/22/06 19:56 |
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EnPsyane74
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I heartily agree with Red on this. Just about the only way to have any PvP fair in D&D is to have like-class fighting like-class and at the same level. Then, how to handle multi-classers? At PAX, I helped judge several of their one-on-one duels for 3.5 D&D. It was fun - but some of the multi-classing was out of hand. In the Fighter's division, we had people with tons of Rouge Levels sneaking trying to get a sneak-attack. Problem was - we had several of these types fighting each other & none of them had enough ranks in Spot to find their opponent! Round after round dragged by - with each of em moving & failing their Spot Checks. It was in-freakin-sane. I saw just how easily the 3.5 rules give-out in PvP situations - as we the judges finally had to house-rule some conditions to end the situation and actually make them fight.
While PvP may be a huge draw for other games - D&D is not designed for it w/o some serious modification of the rules. I'm very happy that PvP is not in DDO - even if it's only in some "Arena" setting as some have suggested. In DDO there is really one main way to prove how good your character is - and that is how well you support the rest of your Party. That's D&D at it's heart and soul - not proving your Cleric can whomp my Rouge in a duel ( or vice versa ).
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 01/23/06 01:52 |
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Starion
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Good comments Guys,
I quit WoW 5 weeks ago after 10 months of 25hr a week play on the European Aszune PvE server.
I had 2 lvl 60 chars and was an officer in the Arc-Angels Guild, the only thing I miss is my Guildies, and the few interesting instances.
I am hoping DDO will be everything that WoW was not, most of all "an Adventure" and not an xp grind, or an elitest lets see who can do it first contest.
I would like to think that I have seen my last
"Noob"
"WTF"
"Ninja"
And all the others that go with it....
Probably not but maybe the smaller party sizes and the need to party up, will go some way to cutting this down a bit.
I know I sound a little bitter and twisted, but I had high hopes for WoW and it was not the game that let me down as much as the type of players who got involved.
Did you ever stop and ask yourself where these 2 million new RPGers suddenly came from ?, FPS and counterstrike is my guess.
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| 01/23/06 02:49 |
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thejeni
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I think it is kinda good they didn't add PvP into the game. I mean this is D&D. You are supposed to work with other people to achieve things, not fight them.
And I remember when city of heores first started there was no PvP at all, and it was great. Then they decided to add the arenas and a bit of PvP and they changed all the different kinds of characters to try to achieve "balance". This happened over 6 months ago, and they are still messing with them trying to make them balanced. What they ended up doing was "nerfing" one character type, then after so many people complain, they change it again, and again. Now all of the different kinds are a lot less powerful then when they started the game.
I would rather them just leave it with out PvP and if people feel the need for it, they can find another game. I would hate to see them try to balance out the different classes in DDO.
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| 01/23/06 09:05 |
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Trystim
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PvP has ruined virtually every game out there where it was added into it at a later date, creating nerf's for this and nerf's for that. When a game is originally designed without PvP and only PvE it is designed balance minus some things people may find exploitable later on.
It is when the PvP'ers come into the game post release, that all the "crying" starts then the nerf's all because someone things one class is to powerful etc etc.
The only reason it is ever done to a game is to draw in a bigger revenue adding to the revenue coming in from current subscribers. yes they will lose a few but they will gain more then they lose.
It is usually a business decision when PvP is put into a game but as stated above by many others the fact of D&D would be ruined by PvP and turn this game into something else.
*edited for typo's*
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 01/23/06 14:13 |
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Cannith Lord
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Well, who's to say PvP needs to be 1 on 1. They've taken DDO in a different direction so why not take PvP in a different direction. DnD is mant to be co-op, so make the PvP co-op.
Also this comes from Meridian 59, they had a huge arena. Unlike other MMOs like EQ that have arenas, it's just not walk in and fight. Meridian 59 required you to talk to the arena NPC, then there would be an announcment and those entering the fight would step into the arena.
DDO could do PvP in a similar way, for Guilds vs Guilds, and even keep track record of wins and losses or time run outs, so on and so forth.
The one thing I loved about Meridian 59's Arena PvP and I have not seen it since, once everyone had steped into the arena, before the fight began, pillars raised up and gates opened that led to tunnels in the arena. The arena became a maze in which you battled in, it was one of the most amazing experiances. 20 people in constant battle you slay, one, run down a coloum, turn a courner see a 2 people in the middle of a battle, you wait for the victor to rise so you can take what little of his life is left, you look behind to see someone turing down the way, so you duck for cover in a tunnel and as the person passes by you jump out and strike from behind.
Seriously the guild battles and free for all battles were amazing. There was no needing to nerf, even the dark wizards whith their holding spells. The maze made it so you could strategicly get a leg up on a class that would otherwise shred you at a distance in the open.
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| 01/24/06 14:14 |
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Redweaver
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I personally do not care if they do or do not implement PvP as long as it does not affect MY game in any way shape or form.
I do not want to have any classes change in order to make PvPers happy. No nerfs, no fixes, no tweaks, no balancing.
I do not want to have /duel invites spamming me all day long from people desperate to prove the size of their e-peens.
I do not want to group with anyone constantly pushing the group to go PvP instead.
I do not want all the best and most special gear in game coming from PvP in any way.
I'd rather not even have it on the server I play on.
If PvP can be implemented in such a way that I can play the game without knowing it exists, then PvP will have my complete blessing. PvP should be 100% optional and give no rewards other than the bragging rights, which should be kept to a forum kept under strict moderation, and anyone ever bragging about their PvP wins in any public channels should be perma-banned from the game.
If you enjoy PvP, be my guest. But don't try to force it on me.
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 01/24/06 16:16 |
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EnPsyane74
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Once again - Red & I agree.
The only way I'd ever like to see an Arena implemented in DDO would be to keep the Solo crowd happy. They could go in for short, player-vs-monster(s) challenges that would yield small cash or minor item rewards. The Arena could keep the same Normal, Hard, Elite entry requirements as well. No XP rewards given however - or at best, extremely minimal XP given. Personally, I think that this would be the best way to keep the random-content and solo crowds happy.
But, a PvP Arena is just not what D&D is about. And I'd be hideously disappointed if DDO ever went in that direction. If you want to butt-heads with other players, I'll sell you my Counter Strike CD. If you'd rather team up & smack around the Hill Giants in Redwillow... send me a Tell. :)
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 01/24/06 18:35 |
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Starion
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Same here, PvP is a throwback to FPS and has no place in DDO.
Sorry to harp on about my xp in WoW but, I joined a PvE server because thats how I wanted to play, but as time went by more and more PvP content was added, some say no problem you dont have to take part.
But it had a knock on effect.....
A guildie called for a party to go to Sunken Temple and after a few unanswered calls a pal an I decided to go and help out, as guildies do.
We travelled from Southshore to ST stopping off in IF to get arrows and repair, on arriving at ST we were then told by party leader, sorry I cant go in now "I've been called for Battlegrounds" !!!???
This happened a few times with other people, and it's "crap"
So PvP ....you can keep it. period.
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| 01/25/06 02:35 |
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thejeni
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The responses in this thread make me very happy. I'm glad to see there are other people who feel the same way about PvP as I do. I really would just rather team up with people not fight them, it just seems to bring the assholes out of the wood works...
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| 01/25/06 03:03 |
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Cannith Lord
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I'm not overly fond of PvP myself, but I do find it nice sometimes to indulge. But PvP does draw a rather negative crowd, they should prolly a PvP server.
But also to say PvP has no place in DDO isn't exactly fair. I mean it's D&D, you can do anything. I've gone through a campaign before where to save our party and get some huge bounty off our head the DM made us compete in gladiator showdown.
They just need to find the right way to incorperarte PvP. But I do agree if it interfears with my game in anyway I'd rather not have it.
The mistakes of today, are the scares of tomorrow.
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| 01/25/06 06:41 |
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TrueNeutral
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As you can tell by the fact that I have no Avatar, I am new to POSTING to Forums. I read many a day but never found the need to post. This Post category has changed that.
First, Ihave played many MMO's as I'm sure all of you have, and WoW's populations seems to be drastically younger then the rest. This is not bad, and neither is "Munchkin'ing", "Min-maxing" etc... If this is how some one has fun, so be it. I have been a gamer for almost 30 yrs now and have seen the changes for good and bad. But most of all we need more gamers.
I agree with just about everyone here that PvP is 'troublesome'. Yes, it will be nerfed. Yes, my character build for PvE will probably stink in PvP. Yes, most forms of PvP involve people ganking or exploitng the system to the detriment of others... And I personally Dislike PvP.
BUT!!!!! Dungeons and Dragons which this game is based on, and arguably ALL other RPG's as well, is a PvP. What? You say. DnD is PvP. Of course. PvE involves you figting an environment it is even in the name. PvENVIRONMENT. DnD is not against an AI opponent or the environment per se. It is you and some buddies against the DM or GM as they call them now. I have never played against an "AI" DM. they are all "I" (or most of them are). They are a human, and they are PLAYERS too. Thus you and your party are fighting the DM and his cronies. They are arbitrary and Neutral (supposedly) but their job is to create enjoyment for you by putting in obstacles (traps, monsters, challenges etc...) when you fight his Boss lvl 9 Lich Sorcerer you are fighting another PLAYER, him. HE controls the enemies actions and decisions, not a computer program. THUS, DnD is a PvP. Pen and Paper DnD that is.
To end this long post (sorry about that). I dislike PvP mainly because of the competitive nature of it, and of course the abusive ganking. But to argue it should not be included because DnD is not PvP is completely inaccurate in my opinion. Please disregard this post if you play DnD with a Robotic, Computer, Artificial DM. But for all others. Remeber, your DM is a human just like another player and is trying to make your game challenging... either by adding traps, or killing you (with monsters, NPC's etc...) this is PvP!!!!! And try to be more understanding of the "NOOBS", "Non-LEET's", "Munchkins", "Min-Mazers" out there. Without them this industry/genre would not grow. And there would be less gamers for us to play with. I hope to see ALL of you in game, and wish you a great and fun experience. NO matter How you play. One more thing... At Gen Con fairs I have seen parties fight each other for fun. So there is PvP for some serious gamers.
(But I do detest Gankers... LOL)
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| 02/20/06 11:44 |
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thejeni
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| QUOTE | As you can tell by the fact that I have no Avatar, I am new to POSTING to Forums. I read many a day but never found the need to post. This Post category has changed that.
First, Ihave played many MMO's as I'm sure all of you have, and WoW's populations seems to be drastically younger then the rest. This is not bad, and neither is "Munchkin'ing", "Min-maxing" etc... If this is how some one has fun, so be it. I have been a gamer for almost 30 yrs now and have seen the changes for good and bad. But most of all we need more gamers.
I agree with just about everyone here that PvP is 'troublesome'. Yes, it will be nerfed. Yes, my character build for PvE will probably stink in PvP. Yes, most forms of PvP involve people ganking or exploitng the system to the detriment of others... And I personally Dislike PvP.
BUT!!!!! Dungeons and Dragons which this game is based on, and arguably ALL other RPG's as well, is a PvP. What? You say. DnD is PvP. Of course. PvE involves you figting an environment it is even in the name. PvENVIRONMENT. DnD is not against an AI opponent or the environment per se. It is you and some buddies against the DM or GM as they call them now. I have never played against an "AI" DM. they are all "I" (or most of them are). They are a human, and they are PLAYERS too. Thus you and your party are fighting the DM and his cronies. They are arbitrary and Neutral (supposedly) but their job is to create enjoyment for you by putting in obstacles (traps, monsters, challenges etc...) when you fight his Boss lvl 9 Lich Sorcerer you are fighting another PLAYER, him. HE controls the enemies actions and decisions, not a computer program. THUS, DnD is a PvP. Pen and Paper DnD that is.
To end this long post (sorry about that). I dislike PvP mainly because of the competitive nature of it, and of course the abusive ganking. But to argue it should not be included because DnD is not PvP is completely inaccurate in my opinion. Please disregard this post if you play DnD with a Robotic, Computer, Artificial DM. But for all others. Remeber, your DM is a human just like another player and is trying to make your game challenging... either by adding traps, or killing you (with monsters, NPC's etc...) this is PvP!!!!! And try to be more understanding of the "NOOBS", "Non-LEET's", "Munchkins", "Min-Mazers" out there. Without them this industry/genre would not grow. And there would be less gamers for us to play with. I hope to see ALL of you in game, and wish you a great and fun experience. NO matter How you play. One more thing... At Gen Con fairs I have seen parties fight each other for fun. So there is PvP for some serious gamers.
(But I do detest Gankers... LOL) |
1st off welcome out of your lurking state, TrueNeutral!
And I think you have a very intresting view on the PvP vs PvE thing. When ever I gamed, I never really looked at it as us vs. the DM... but I can see how some would (espcially if you had a mean DM).
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| 02/21/06 07:41 |
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