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rjconroy
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| frustrations and comparisons... |
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ive become increasingly frustrated at the over simplified cookie cutter builds and concepts as it seems that 95% of this community has gotten it into thier heads that there is only one way to do this mission or that mission.
In trying to do some SF and other runs of late ive noticed that it seems the game has been reduced to basically 3 functional classes that can actually get in a group these days, Stance Tanks, SS or MM Necros, and Monks, either healing or bonding
noone wants Eles because of the AoE nerf
noone wants Mesmers cause they dont seem to understand what mesmers can do
noone seems to even want Rangers much these days
so ive been left with only one real char out of my 4 to play, and its the one i enjoy the least..my monk.
so i got to thinking that the math didnt seem right in this assumption that some of these classes are stronger than others... and ive been trying to do a comparison, though its virtually impossible to recreate common spawns
so i decided to a comparison of just two popular skills as it seemed that i was outdamaging the SS in a group with Barrage on a recent Guild run
now let me be clear, this is in now way a statement of the fact that one is better or worse than another.. just food for thought to try to get people out of the over simplified funk the game has lapsed into
in doing a comparison of the two skills by the numbers we see the following
SS stat line: 15/2/10
BA stat line: 5/0/1
we did a few field trials to determine a few things with a couple of guild members.. and this report is based in part on those trials. i was assited by a guild mate who is an experienced and excellent SS
now this is a simplified analysis of the numbers here and it assumes a few things. first off, that the Necro can maintain SS over a 2 minute span, which seem a reasonable assumption based on out test runs. whats difficult to figure is the attack/skill use rate of the bad guys to cause the SS trigger. if we assume a 3 second interval for arguments sake, we see that over a 2 minute span, the SS necro can deal 35 to foe and surrounding, every 3 seconds... for a theoretical total of about 1400 points over the 2 minute span. for sake or argument and thoroughness ill add in the total damage if the time was 2 seconds between attack (2100 total possible damage), and 1 second (4200). Clearly this is the key variable.. attack rate of the foes. Barrage has no such variable and this would be the factor in game that would make the real difference
Barrage on the other hand does not rely on any trigger, and based on its low recharge and virtually no energy use.. can be maintianed indefinitely, energey is not an issue with high expertise. my barrage costs me 2 to use, and i have a 3 regen..its refueled before its done firing. bow choice is a factor, but anything but a horn bow will meet the same 3 second interval for refire, including flight time. my personal prefernece is a recurve. (2.4 second refire, 0.5 time to target. total time 2.9 between.
Barrage then takes the possible damage of the bow (assuming max 15-28, and adds as much as 17 damage to that for a 45 point possible damage. then can also add the 15^ buff for another 6-7 damage making the max about 51. also can be buffed further by various rituals like FW, or RTW to add another 6-10 damage to push the max to 57-61. plus a R/E can add another 8 with a conjure to the elemental stringpushing the toal dmage possible every 3 seconds to over 65-69. all this by the way, easier to maintain than the SS energy requirements by the way. Barrage can affect the target plus up to 6 surrounding foes. to use the same math as the SS stats, this means that the Ranger can Barrage up to 2600-2760 total damage over the same 2 minute span.
one thing i havent address yet is armors affects. clearly that would also bring down the affect of the bows damage.. other things like sundering can negate parts of that .. so since i dont have a week for statistical analysis, ill concede that the bows real damage may drop down some... i observed anywhere from the high thirties, to over 100 spikes.. so its rather hard to truly qualify that based on a foe to foe variance. based on the spikes and observed damage, the numbers used seemed fair, though may be slightly elevated for the ranger. i would say the observed actual damage average would be roughly 5-10 points lower than max possible, so if i use the number 55 i still come up with a sustained damage of 2200 for the Ranger over 2 minutes.
now, admitedly, there are a large number of other variable that come in to play and cannot be 100% shown either way. attack rate of the foes on SS can be far lower than 3 seconds pending size of group etc... and a large group could easily spike every second, so this is far from scientific proof of anything and SS in all likelyhodd is still the superior skill against larger groups.. but against smaller groups that wont trigger as fast, this may or may not be the truth, even though its widely accepted that an SS is better which may, or may not actually be the truth pending the variables
but the summary would appear to suggest that the only time SS is superior to Barrage would be if it is trigger roughly every second.. which inst that unexpected, especially against large mobs... but it also suggest that Barrage isnt as far beneath it as some appear to suggest based on the behavior of most around Deldrimor trying to get a group
bottom line guys, try thinking about more creative builds, rather than the same old cookie cutter stuff youve read in this or some other forum, and remember that there are actually 6 classes of profession now in the game.. and the rest of us would like to play too :)
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| 04/10/06 11:26 |
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Taos Raine
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| RE: frustrations and comparisons... |
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I totally agree with you here. I just wrote a post about Arena cookie-cutters this morning in the rant/rave section. Couldn't have put it any better myself
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| 04/10/06 11:32 |
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Im Not A Lemon
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| RE: frustrations and comparisons... |
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Have SS on two targets next to each other and it does more than Barrage.
Edit: Btw im a Ss necro, and never played a ranger, so maybe my opinion is a little biased.
But well put and i know barragers can do more damage than SS in different circumstances. And i agree with the point on energy management, and in longer battles Barrage > SS.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 04/10/06 11:38 |
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MindBullets
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| RE: frustrations and comparisons... |
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As I have a Necro, a Ranger, and a Monk, I both agree and disagree.
For the most part, when I am SF farming, I don't really want a ranger there. Why, beacuse for the most part(read most part, as in not everyone) rangers tend to get in the way in SF farming. I have been in a group consisting of a War, Monk, Bonder, Ele, and Ranger, and it was one of the best groups I have ever been with. For the most part, I do follow the builds, but if someone askes me if they can go in my group, I will let them. It really depends on the player and their skill, not their builds.
If you want a group to farm, just hit me up. I'll pretty much go with and classes.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
Kelly McFlannigan Lv 20 Mo/X
Keva McFlannigan Lv 20 R/X
Keelin McFlannigan Lv 20 N/X
Kyleen McFlannigan Lv 20 W/X
Kioko McFlannigan Lv 4 Rt/N
Kiada McFlannigan Lv 18 A/Me
Keavy McFlannigan Lv 4 E/Me
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| 04/10/06 12:01 |
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Nihil Zarathustra
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| RE: frustrations and comparisons... |
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I have to both agree with the fact that people shouldnt use cookie cutter builds simply because it's impossible for people to have tried every build for farming and found which ones are the actual best. In fact a smiting monk is just as good as an SS necro for SF farming as long as the warrior holds the gear. In fact a heal/smiter can do more dmg than an SS necro over a period of time..
The Official Self Proclaimed Unofficial Cynic of Gameamp
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| 04/10/06 12:05 |
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axe
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| RE: frustrations and comparisons... |
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Well if we are talking about farming then yes you will only see a few builds, that is mostly because the Elite skill is the core of your farming skillset and there really arent that many farming elites to use. So you will take a certain elite and build around it and it will be similar to a "cookie cutter" build but it all comes down to the elite and so you chose Gladiators Defence (for example) now you need to fill the rest of your skillbar, are you an axe or sword warrior, axe, OK so you will take cyclone, and bonettis, and 2 out of maybe 8 axe skills so you just filled up 5 of your 8 slots that ANY other axe warrior would have done the same thing. Then you throw some way to gain health or negate damage and you have a build that happens to be used by the majority of axe warrior solo farmers.
Its not lack of creativity, it is a lack of choice. Factions will add to the variety, but for farming purposes there are ways to do it FAST and there are ways to do it diferently. But since we are talking about farming we want to be fast so we can get our gold/hour ratio as high as possible.
If I am truely doing missions, I love balanced groups more than any other. I like rangers, mesmers, and eles ALOT but if we are farming and you dont speed things up more than the gold you take away from me, you are not welcome, why because I dont farm because its fun, I farm to make money, so dont take it personal.
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| 04/10/06 12:21 |
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Tor Den Mektige
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| RE: frustrations and comparisons... |
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I have both a lvl 20 ranger and a lvl 20 nec. This is where your theory can crash just a little bit. I agree with what you said about the ranger, but when I do SS, I use archane echo, so I spam SS. I have had up to 3-4 targets with SS on at the same time, and they are dealing mass damage to everyone around them. The reason this is possible, is because with the correct wand and focus, you can have 20-40% halves recharge and 20% halves casting time. With that in mind, you cannot say that an SS necro can just keep SS up for 2 minutes and calculate the exact times he can cast. I agree with the fact that Barrage can probably do just as much damage, but doesnt barrage limit out on 6 or 8 targets? whereas SS on a SF run, if there are 20 mobs aggroed on the tank, it will deal damage to 20 people etc. So both sides are valid, and I would like to try an SF run with a Barrage ranger instead of an SS once. ohh well, thats my 2 cents :)
Account 1: Tor Den Mektige, Account 2: Ching Chong Whi
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| 04/10/06 12:32 |
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rjconroy
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| RE: frustrations and comparisons... |
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love the feedback guys ..
what prompted me to do this was three times yesterday me and some guild mates were trying to get a SF run together. We only had 4 of us available as the others were doing other things at that time
all we needed was a bonder for the group we wanted to run. we had i think 3 different times where a monk joined the group only to ask "A Ranger ?" and leave.
i just thought it was silly .. i ended up leaving and lettting the others grab a SS Necro so the damn monks would actually stick around
its like so many things in the game lately that it seems everyone has this bug up thier read end about "only certain things work" .. my point in posting this is that things are not always as you might think.. and hopefully to encourage people to think a bit more open mindedly and a little outside the box regardless of what you may have read in this or other forums
sometimes, as much as i enjopy reading these forums, i really wish they werent there and people had to think for themselves a little more
maybe its just me and im getting old, lol
"if you cant tell who the sucker is, you're it!"
World Of Warcraft IGNs:
Mulconroi - Gnome Mage
Floplag - Night Elf Rogue
Avalan - Human Priest
Psykosis - Undead Priest
Realms:
Kalecgos for the alliance
The Venture co for the horde
www.gamerz-united.com
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| 04/10/06 12:36 |
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livingdeadgirl
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| RE: frustrations and comparisons... |
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I agree with you... Someone found a build and exploted it, then others follow. For now, noone is thinking and working on another build that works just the same but using differents professions. Then Anet gonna nerf something within the build, people will complain and then they will find a new build. Well it goes in circle XD
I've been with ele in those group, was alot of fun. The ele just need the right skills i guess.
EDIT : fix some of my english
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 04/10/06 12:41 |
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rjconroy
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| RE: frustrations and comparisons... |
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yes, echo can aid in spreading the damage out.. thats for certain... but it also means your casting alot more energy to have to try to maintain it and may mean you will require longer recharge times to maintain that damage over a prolonged fight. you will spike high ealry, but may not be able to maintain as easy
archane is a 15 point spell just like SS. so it becomes a second SS for 20 seconds, then requires another 30 to recharge. effectively this creates spiked damage, but unless that spike takes the group out completely .. it doesnt affect the bottom line numbers. just makes them front loaded. up front your down 30 energy... you may not be able to get the 4th off as fast as you otherwise could have.. and certainly not the 5th.
valid point to be sure, but if the spike doesnt finish the job, may actually hamper your efforts
"if you cant tell who the sucker is, you're it!"
World Of Warcraft IGNs:
Mulconroi - Gnome Mage
Floplag - Night Elf Rogue
Avalan - Human Priest
Psykosis - Undead Priest
Realms:
Kalecgos for the alliance
The Venture co for the horde
www.gamerz-united.com
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| 04/10/06 12:43 |
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tuoppi74
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| RE: frustrations and comparisons... |
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I totally agree with contempt for the cookiecutter builds and some of the aspects that we see today when forming/trying to join groups these days.
But this game has gotten to the point where effecincy is favored above all other aspects.
I really hope we get something revitalizing to the PvE side. I've been PvP the random arenas for the past month. Did you notice i said 'Random Arenas'? The reason I have 100k faction and no fame is mostly the same as with farming in PvE. Nobody wants a 'free thinker' to a group in 'upper levels'
[drama]'...Oh what sad times are these when free spirits of this world are left shouting LFG on growded districts filled with 55's, SS's MM's and alike'[/drama]
And to finnish off: a comment on SS vs BA.
SS on PvP
Smart ppl can avoid it's effects (unlikely, but possible:-)
BA on PvP
Smart ppl can scatter
SS on PvP
1. Combine this with a gear or book holder.
2. Add N/Me using Echo and you can cast this on 3 monters simultaniously -> MASSIVE DMG (until they die off). Actually 4 if you really in the zone and have the mana (but this tends to be an overkill, try it ;-)
BA on PvP
You gave good examples of how to maximize the dmg output. I really dont have anything original to spice this up further :-)
crud... just hit F5 and there are 4 new entries in the time it took me to type this up, so sorry if i repeat something here :-(
Toux - N/R, N/Mo, N/W (LVL20 completed PvE plot)
Axelon - W/N, W/Mo (LVL20 completed PvE plot)
Altrius - Mo/Me, Mo/W (LVL20 completed PvE plot)
Tomax - Me/W (LVL20 THK)
Aeryn - W/R (LVL20 Ember Light Camp)
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| 04/10/06 12:46 |
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tuoppi74
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| RE: frustrations and comparisons... |
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| QUOTE | | ... but it also means your casting alot more energy to have to try to maintain it |
Soul reaping covers this up quite nicely. I also use Desecrate Enchancemets for AoE dmg or Vamipiric Gaze for single targets :-)
Toux - N/R, N/Mo, N/W (LVL20 completed PvE plot)
Axelon - W/N, W/Mo (LVL20 completed PvE plot)
Altrius - Mo/Me, Mo/W (LVL20 completed PvE plot)
Tomax - Me/W (LVL20 THK)
Aeryn - W/R (LVL20 Ember Light Camp)
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| 04/10/06 12:55 |
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