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bigspeer

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PvP unfair for villians?

i'm bored at work and ready to go home and i came across this article at gamespy. READ ME.

its a review of i7. and i would like to quote a passage:

QUOTE

When the pillboxes are all taken, however, that's still not the end. It begins a five minute free-for-all in which the winning side must beat enough opponents to acquire 1,000 "temporal points" and win the round and the prize -- a temporary power that allows the player to summon an insanely powerful guardian robot. Unfortunately, it was that five-minute experience that pointed out the one big problem that Issue 7 still doesn't address -- PvP imbalance. While it's not nearly as bad as the PvP imbalances I've experienced in other games, there's just no way to dodge the fact that villains, by and large, are overmatched in PvP. The reason comes down to a problem that dates back to the game's launch: the lack of a dedicated healer class. The closest villains have is the Mastermind, which is a hybrid healer/debuffer. The weakness of Masterminds, however, is that they require an opponent be nearby in order to heal teammates. Masterminds are incredibly fragile, and by the time they get close enough to heal, they've been one-shotted by a Scrapper. Even worse, they take longer to get back to the action because of the length of time it takes to summon and enhance all their pets.

i havent checked out the CoV side of gameamp cause i dont play CoV, but is this a legit claim? i kind of think so, but seeing as how many complaints i've seen on these boards about heroes being on the lower deficite of PvP, i dont know.

06/20/06 13:23

Electro

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

Yeah, that's not accurate. A Thermal Corruptor is the closest thing villains have to a healer.

And as for the PvP imbalance? I don't PvP very much but from what little I have done, I think it's pretty well balanced. I wonder where these people get their information?

06/20/06 13:26

Tem6

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

I do play COV and I have to disagree with that person. The closest thing we have to a healer type class is the Corruptor. Their secondaries include Knetics, Dark, Thermal, and Radiation. The masterminds while they do have some heals are primarly debuffers.

GUARDIAN
The Illegal Army
Cyberdoll 41st Robotic/FF Mastermind
Little Ms Gunslinger 30th AR/Traps Corruptor

Triumph
Heroes 4 Hire
Team-Six 33rd MA/SR Scrapper
Sun Block 32nd INV/EM Tanker

06/20/06 13:31

Delphon

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

i'm bored at work and ready to go home and i came across this article at gamespy. READ ME.

its a review of i7. and i would like to quote a passage:

QUOTE

This is way wrong in so many ways! The biggest imbalance I see is that the Heroes are organized and work relatively well in a cooperative manner. In my time there I see the Villains seem to be largely opportinists to the will jump in for an easy kill where a scuffle between sides has already ensued.

As for the "insanely powerful guardian robot" it is just an "OK" pet that helps small groups or soloists defeat pill boxes. It fires grenades or several rounds of ammo about once each 5-10 seconds, it is terribly slow and stupid (gets hung up on seams in the roadway easily). If you can move at all you can so easily out run this "insanely powerful guardian robot" so it is not a factor for Villains themselves unless they are attacking a Hero held pill box and think that should be easy with no one shooting them.

The pill boxes do significant damage and at a significant range for whichever side holds them.

Del

06/20/06 13:39

Valentine

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

To be honest my rad/rad corruptor is the exact same as my rad/rad defender but with the powersets switched round. As such the only difference is the order they both get healing powers!

Now in pvp this will only be a factor up until recluses victory which this review seems to be based on.

Now on the pvp imbalance i find that every AT has a balance and counter (eg corruptors scourge vs blasters defiance) except for the stalker class. There is nothing which frustrates me and puts me off pvp more than the dozens of stalkers which run up, AS you and then as you counter, run/fly/jump/tp away before u can get of a shot. If they dont get 1/2 shot kills they flee from your counter attack (but this is a rant for another thread!).

All in all I agree that (apart from above) the heroes/villains are very balanced compared to some games (*cough* runescape). It is simply a fact that the people who play heroes are largely more social and play with tighter teams than the "im a solo renegade" villains players.

Oh, Hello Mr. Jurassik! Sorry about that arrow, it wasnt aimed at you. I'll just be on my way now... *flees*

06/20/06 14:35

Xaviak

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I haven't done PvP yet but as far as I've heard Pvp can't be too imbalanced as we evil villains have stalkers. :P

Haha that earlier post saying how heroes work together and villains just do whatever they do, made me laugh. BUT in a GOOD way! :D Lol it's like straight from a comic book where courageous heroes work together to smite evil and us villains just run wildly like savages killing everything we see.
It's a great comic-stereotype. I luv it! ^^

06/20/06 14:51

Hobsnob

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

I don't agree there is a PvP imbalance. Whereas heroes, as was said before do have better co-ordination and know how to team properly, villains benifit greatly from their inherent abilities.

Take tanks and brutes. The tank's gaunlet ability is almost useless in PvP where taunt can miss and fights are often in small groups. Fury, the brute's inherent power, is infinately useful. Another example could be dominators and controllers. Domination can cut through any anti-mez toggles, whereas Containment does a few more meagre points of damage.

All the villains' inherent powers are more useful than the heroes'. The only hero inherent that is even moderately useful is the scrapper's Critical Hits.

Hobsnob

Thanks to Invasion Designs

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Brigadier - lvl 50 INV/SS/Pyre Tanker
Keishi - lvl 31 Kat/Dark Scrapper
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Twilight Blade - lvl 36 Claw/Nin Stalker
Keishi Kurai- lvl 32 Nin/DM Mastermind
Galvanic - lvl 30 Elec/Elec Brute
Astral Twilight - lvl 36 Warshade

All on defiant
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06/20/06 14:51

Thundarpants

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

It's obvious that the person that wrote the article either isn't a player, or isn't a good one. I can't dissagree with them more. From what I've read and experienced about PvP in general is that Empaths and heals aren't the deciding factor in PvP encounters.

There will always be crackpots out there like this. Game testers that don't spend any REAL time playing, just tinker a little and make assumptions.

World of Warcraft

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Because she's not......

06/20/06 15:15

Xaviak

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What the hell? I just noticed he said that MMS are the "closesta to healers" in CoV. O.o Even I know that's cheaptalk.
Aren't Thermal corruptors more adapt healers than MMs?

06/20/06 15:17

Valentine

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

Masterminds are incredibly fragile, and by the time they get close enough to heal, they've been one-shotted by a Scrapper.

I dunno why but this reminds me more of the situation of being a blaster with the plethora of stalkers that haunt RV. Also, has anyone ever seen a scrapper one shot ANYTHING in PvP? I sure havent!

Oh, Hello Mr. Jurassik! Sorry about that arrow, it wasnt aimed at you. I'll just be on my way now... *flees*

06/20/06 15:27

Thundarpants

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

What the hell? I just noticed he said that MMS are the "closesta to healers" in CoV. O.o Even I know that's cheaptalk.
Aren't Thermal corruptors more adapt healers than MMs?

That's 100% correct. Further debunking their article and showing that they don't really know the game.

Welcome to the site Xaviak!

06/20/06 15:36

Jorden_Yen

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

/SIGNED! I mean, what's with the inherant powers for Heroes? Defiance? What a joke, It's practically useless. Containment is probably ok (not a big controller player), and the defender one (forgot the name) doesn't work until your team is in trouble.

Jordan's Town
My lousy name for the comic that I did which can be found here CoH @ JeremyDuffy.com

My favorite guide - Advanced Costuming. How to work your costume into your character's theme, story, and playstyle.

Jordan Yen 50 Dark/Dark/Dark Defender
Doctor Kev 50 Necro/Dark Mastermind
Grave Sally 50 Rad/Kin Corruptor (slowest combo in existance)
Mudnuke 42 Earth/Rad Controller
Shazel 38 Fire/fire/fire blaster
Screaming Gale 38 Storm/Sonic Defender
Jordan Yin 38 Warshade, Jordan Yang 35 Peacebringer

08/08/06 09:24

ben24

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

i am a coV player but i'm geting coH very soon and the reason it seems so unfair on villains is because the heroes r very clever they set traps 4 dum villains and never go around alone whereas villains try 2 solo the heroes and when we a lone hero we atak it only 2 find his frends jump in and then u hav no chance :(

08/31/06 03:49

Anachron

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

The closest villains have is the Mastermind, which is a hybrid healer/debuffer. The weakness of Masterminds, however, is that they require an opponent be nearby in order to heal teammates. Masterminds are incredibly fragile, and by the time they get close enough to heal, they've been one-shotted by a Scrapper.

Sheer Poppycock!

One-Shotted??? lol this person is obviously a noob, with patron powers in play there are very few if any 1 shots, now if your ignorant and don't know how to use henchmen as seem's to be the case with this joker then of course you will die easy, but still rarely from one shot.

He must be referring to all the Uber AVs that run around then yeah, their are perhaps more one shots from Statesman or Positron etc. etc.

But I think between the patches and nerfs, PvP is well balanced, infact most large battles between Heroes and Villains usually end in a Stalemate...

Stalemate---Statesman... interesting how closely they resemble eachother... ^_^

But then lets give the guy the right to have an opinion however wrong it is, perhaps I should use my old gamespy ID and post a rebuttle to that little diatribe...

Naw... he's prolly looking for such a response so that he can continue to rant... i'll let it speak for itself...

Anyone who has actually spent some time playing CoH/CoV knows it boulderdash.

ta...

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

08/31/06 05:09

Jorden_Yen

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

-uh... removed because I didn't know what I was talking about :P

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

08/31/06 05:29

Julia Heartilly

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

Even if villain teams stand a lesser chance against hero team than vice versa due to lack of healing as this person implies there's still the fact that Heroes are weak compared to Arch-Villains.

I've seen just 2 Corruptors and only 1 of them accompanied by a heavy taking out any of the Heroes in RV in just a matter of minutes.
I can forget to even try that with Ghost Widow or Captain Mako.

08/31/06 08:06

LordStarwolf

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

ok, sorry, it took me a minute to stop laughing enough so I could type this. Shaking from laughter isn't good for spelling accuracy.

I'm prettuy much a COH player. I've been in COV, played all teh AT's, but pretty much stick to COH. The last time I was in PVP area Sunshine- and I got our butts stomped i don't know how many times. It was a slaughter. The idea that heroes are more powerful is laughable (hence the uncontrollable laughter). The funniest thing is the most I've heard about imbalances is heroes complaining that Stalkers are too powerful and make the PVP unbalenced.

Anyway, villians can heal, team coordination is far more important than individual skills, and the villians are actually more offense oriented so if there is an imbalence I would say it favors the villians.

Guardian
Avant Guard = Emp/Rad/Psychic Defender Lvl 50 (Dedicated Healer)
Astral Plane = Peacebringer Lvl 50
Spica = Fire/Em/Energy Tank Lvl 50 (Scranker)
Avant Spines = Spines/Regen Scrapper Lvl 50 (AOE King)
Beliskner = Eng/Eng Blaster Lvl 42 (Blapper)
Avant Kin = Ill/Kin Controller Lvl 39
BMG = AR/Dev Blaster Lvl 29
Avant Psy = Psychic Blast/Empathy Defender Lvl 20 (Offender)
Avant Def = Kinetics/Energy Blast Defender Lvl 16
Avant Stone = Stone/Storm Controller lvl 15 (Super Controller)
Triumph
Lord Yu = MA/Regen Scrapper Lvl 24
Protector
Electrostun = Electric/EM Blaster Lvl 21 (Sapper)
T-99 = Ice/Ice Tanker Lvl 20
Starwolf = Katana/Inv Scrapper Lvl 18 (my very first toon, 3 1/2 years ago)
Pinnacle
Avant Claws = Claws/Regen Scrapper Lvl 24
Champion
Avant Dragon = Fire/Fire Blaster Lvl 20
Freedom
Avant Arch = Archery/NRG Blaster Lvl 50
Avant Char = Fire/Kinetics Controller Lvl 50
Avant Shade = Warshade Lvl 36

And many, many, many more....

08/31/06 08:16

singularity

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

/signed

My God, those Stalkers are foul sports! They hit you with Assassin's Strike, and if that doesn't kill you, finish you off with some other thing. THEY are the one-shotters, sure as hell not scrappers! Also, the Ninjitsu Stalkers and the ones with TP are the most unfair. When they're almost dead, BOOM smoke bomb or blinding powder and then make their escape, or just TP to the top of a building. What a bunch of cheapos they are. And of course when you're in the heat of battle trying to keep up a fight against a brute or MM-SLICE!!! More debt on that XP bar. Happened to me once. If I ever get CoV, I vow never to make a Stalker. Never. I hate them with a passion. I don't know about the other 4, but I would presume Doms are nasty players also. And /signed on Hobs, the autos for Heroes are pretty useless. It would be my conclusion that the devs favor the villains over the heroes, and that is certainly the case with the Lead Dev that used to be (Jack Emmert). I didn't see him constantly weakening the Villains.

"Probably the saddest thing you'll ever see is a mosquito sucking on a mummy. Forget it, little friend."

08/31/06 08:27

bigspeer

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

I didn't see him constantly weakening the Villains.

they havent because heroes have been around for about 1.5 years longer than the villains. they just havent gotten a chance to study and analyse villains as extensively as heroes IMO. there might be a nerf with villain written all over it in the near future, or there might not be because they already have seen and fixed the hero errors that they recognized. if they were to nerf villains, it would probably be an aspect unrelated to heroes in anyway, because they wouldnt be making the same adjustments twice.

08/31/06 08:49

Malady_Incarnate_2001

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

First, I'd like to welcome you to the site, Ben.

Second, you're absolutely correct about the strategy differences between heroes and villains. There are a couple reasons that this is the case:

1. Heroes have been around a while. Although some folks just take their CoH skills and apply them in CoV, many of the villains are relatively new to the game. They haven't learned the little tricks that each AT can use to decimate an opponent.

2. The ATs are designed differently to express different fighting styles for the separate games. If you take a quick look at the villain ATs on the main CoV site, you'll notice that every villain causes damage at medium level or higher. If you do the same with the heroes, you'll notice that not only are there only 2 ATs that cause high damage, there are also 2 ATs that cause low damage. Therein lies the basis for the true difference between the games intended by the Devs. Team play is promoted in CoH because the powers of each character relates well to the powers of their compatriots. While the same can be said for villains on a lower level, their true nature is to rely on offense. I'm definitely not saying that a hero team will always beat a villain team - I don't believe that at all. However, I am saying that an efficient hero team that relies on sound strategy and tactics will have the edge at the beginning of a rumble.

Malady

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here." - William Shakespeare

CoH - Mr Brightside - Level 50 Illusion/Radiation Controller - Guardian

CoH - Mynd Warp - Level 38 Earth/Storm Controller - Liberty

CoH - Frygyd - Level 16 Ice/Storm Controller - Triumph

08/31/06 09:12

Valentine

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

In response to the lameness of hero inherent powers... didnt i read somewhere that they are looking at improving the blasters defiance? that woud be so handy as at the moment the only time im in the red health wise is when it happens incredibly quickly and usually means im dead before my Rain of Arrows or Flaming Arrow will fire which makes it damn near useless!

Oh, Hello Mr. Jurassik! Sorry about that arrow, it wasnt aimed at you. I'll just be on my way now... *flees*

08/31/06 09:12

bigspeer

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

they're "looking into it"

08/31/06 09:15

Solaronn

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

IN the limited PvPing I've done it seems to me to be the exact opposite, that villains powers seem to outwiegh heroes for the most part in PvP. Now I'm not a real PvPer either, but I found it almost ludicrous that the stalker I was fighting (A friend who was actually staying put instead of the cowardly attack and run tactics of most stalkers) could actually stand up to my Invul/SS for a long time and actually beat him once with her powers. I won the second time, but I thought stalkers were supposed to be squishy? She had armors on and was actually the furthest thing from squishy. Both were level 50's BTW. Also the mastermind being able to call up at least half a dozen minions vs.a solo player doesn't seem fair to me either. I watched a friend use his tank Vs. a mastermind. He should have stomped that guy, instead he lost. In my eyes at least the villains definitely have the upper hand.

"Solaronn" (With way to many alts and servers to name)

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08/31/06 09:16

Malady_Incarnate_2001

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

I think when you switch from a group example to a solo example, then you'll definitely see a change in the dynamic. Villains are created to cause more damage, and most have self sustaining powers that allow them to take a good bit as well. I agree that villains have the upper hand in solo PvP.

Malady

08/31/06 09:41

Solaronn

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

Okay the world just started spinning backwards and it's sunny and 100 in the north pole, you and I agreed on something??? :-)

"Solaronn" (With way to many alts and servers to name)

Your results:
You are Superman

Superman		95%
Green Lantern		80%
Spider-Man		70%
Hulk		70%
The Flash		70%
Supergirl		64%
Robin		52%
Iron Man		50%
Wonder Woman		49%
Catwoman		45%
Batman		30%

You are mild-mannered, good,
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Click here to take the "Which Superhero are you?" quiz...<

08/31/06 09:54

Malady_Incarnate_2001

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

Okay the world just started spinning backwards and it's sunny and 100 in the north pole, you and I agreed on something??? :-)

lol Stranger things have happened, bubba.

Although...Nothing seems to come to mind... :P

Malady

08/31/06 16:43

Solaronn

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

Okay the world just started spinning backwards and it's sunny and 100 in the north pole, you and I agreed on something??? :-)

lol Stranger things have happened, bubba.

Although...Nothing seems to come to mind... :P

Malady

Hahahahah! :-)

"Solaronn" (With way to many alts and servers to name)

Your results:
You are Superman

Superman		95%
Green Lantern		80%
Spider-Man		70%
Hulk		70%
The Flash		70%
Supergirl		64%
Robin		52%
Iron Man		50%
Wonder Woman		49%
Catwoman		45%
Batman		30%

You are mild-mannered, good,
strong and you love to help others.

Click here to take the "Which Superhero are you?" quiz...<

08/31/06 16:45

Gon_Edain

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

Okay the world just started spinning backwards and it's sunny and 100 in the north pole, you and I agreed on something??? :-)

lol Stranger things have happened, bubba.

Although...Nothing seems to come to mind... :P

Malady

And Bendis still sucks! hahahaha.

My 50s:
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08/31/06 17:52

Solaronn

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

QUOTE

Okay the world just started spinning backwards and it's sunny and 100 in the north pole, you and I agreed on something??? :-)

lol Stranger things have happened, bubba.

Although...Nothing seems to come to mind... :P

Malady

And Bendis still sucks! hahahaha.

TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN!

"Solaronn" (With way to many alts and servers to name)

Your results:
You are Superman

Superman		95%
Green Lantern		80%
Spider-Man		70%
Hulk		70%
The Flash		70%
Supergirl		64%
Robin		52%
Iron Man		50%
Wonder Woman		49%
Catwoman		45%
Batman		30%

You are mild-mannered, good,
strong and you love to help others.

Click here to take the "Which Superhero are you?" quiz...<

08/31/06 17:55

Whimcycle

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RE: PvP unfair for villians?

Hummm,

If this is happening in RV, then you must chock it up to player inexperiance withtheir AT. When I played CoV in beta, my MM undead was unstoppable, even in PvP. I remember one fellow when I was in Bloody Bay tried to get the jump on me from behind. I didn't have my undead out, as I was doing a phone booth mission. He had me immoble, but not held, so I drop my undead BEHIND him. While I healed myself, they started pound him. As he tried to run, I put a hold on him. He had a tiny sliver of pulsing red left when I pull my guys off of him and let him fly away.

MM are tough to kill if you play them right. I didn't have my first 'death' until in my twenties and PO'ed a superheroain by beating up her boyfriend. Gads, no sense of humor.

Conversely I was attacked once by a MM robot in Bloody Bay while playing Whimcycle. Ill/empath controller. We were both 25's, so we were matched there. She attacked me 3 times, the first two times I just wasted her robots and let her run. The last time I ignored the robots, flew right up to her and started with the holds and the pounding. She was deep in the red when she managed to pop off her breakfrees and SJ out. Her stratgies in her attacks were sound, but I for one remember what Ender said, "Home is Down!"

=~Whimcycle~=
A fleeting shadow in the crowd.

08/31/06 19:18

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