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thejeni

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Sidekickin'

Aftering being on a PUG last night with a sidekick tank who decided he was going to herd, and dealing w/ him yelling at me everytime he ran in a totally different direction away from me and got out of sk range, I had a thought.

Who's job is it to make sure that the SK stays in range? Does that responsibility lay on the shoulders of the SK or the mentor? If the sk decides to run off in their own direction is it the job of the mentor to follow them to make sure they don't die, and if the mentor runs off, is it the job of the sk to keep up?

07/22/06 12:22

Julia Heartilly

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RE: Sidekickin'

I would say both have their share, if the guy you're talking about was runnign away constantly from the group, well that's his decision and if he dies that's a result of his decision to go make stupid decisions. (Huh?? Whatever, first thought is usually right. >_<)

Anyway, if however you'd be in a large room with some containers on top of each other in the backside and while the whole team is fighting you, as a blaster, think "Those containers look very strategic..." and you fly up there to go fire your bullets from a place those silly gravity owned mobs can't get to and that way he gets out of your range, then it's your fault.

It just depends on the situation I think.

07/22/06 12:27

sportgenius

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RE: Sidekickin'

I think its the guy being sidekicked's job to stay in range. hes the one being helpped, he should hold the responsibility of keeping up.

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07/22/06 12:37

Julia Heartilly

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RE: Sidekickin'

QUOTE

I think its the guy being sidekicked's job to stay in range. hes the one being helpped, he should hold the responsibility of keeping up.

I think that's a common opinion but I disagree.
Read the second paragraph of my previous post for example...

07/22/06 12:46

thejeni

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RE: Sidekickin'

See that's where my delima comes in. Being a squishy blaster, I stand as far away from the battle as possible (I have range on all my attacks so I can do this). I also tend to move around a lot so I can get in good AoE shots. I had a sk last night and it occured to me that it must be a real pain keeping up w/ all my moving around and what not. We didn't have any problems with going out of range, but I can see where it could happen easily.

Also when the fight starts to go downhill, I run (I'm squishy!). But last night I couldn't run b/c my sk wasn't running (well I ran after he died of course). Is it fair to gain debt because your sk isn't willing to run when things are looking bad?

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07/22/06 12:58

Warron Peace

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RE: Sidekickin'

As I see it, its the responsibility of the mobile party. If the sk is runnin all around the place without warning the mentor, then if they die, oh well, quit bein a moron. If its the mentor thats movin around, then they should make sure that they dont move out of range if the sk could be in danger. I myself have told sk's to stay put untill I port them to a safe location.

As for your last question, it depends on the level of the sk. If its a PLing type situation, then go ahead and run. If they die, the debt will disappear soon enough. Also, what AT are they? A tank should be willing to stay to the last inch of life to make sure the rest of the team gets away. If he knows that, he won't mind you running, as long as he doesn't have anyone else he needs to protect with his life. If he doesn't know that, then this is a perfect situation to teach him that.

All AT's have a responsibility to the rest of the team. Yesterday I was Exemping down a few levels with some SG members, trying to get em caught up to me faster. When the fit hit the shan, I went in and started firing off all my AoE's at once (squishee lil blaster, btw). This got attention on me long enough for everyone else, including the tank, to get away safely. Of course, I died. I was ported and rezzed. No biggie. I did this because of the fact that me bein exemped means I'm already not going to ding with them. And it also means that my debt will go away twice as fast. I wasn't delaying myself any more than I already was, and any debt I got would shortly be a null issue. I took advantage of the fact that I had the least to lose from debt and saved the rest of em from it.

All depends on the scenario.

Warron

my current project: Spine/Will farmer, Quillpower, on Virtue.

07/22/06 13:31

Julia Heartilly

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RE: Sidekickin'

Granted, it is a hard question to answer and in certain situations can be doubtful.

First, let's state that both definitely have their share of responsibility.
Yes, the SK benefits from his mentor but to say that that makes it entirely his responsibility is dead wrong.
The party as a whole, which includes the mentor, benefits from the assistance of the SK in battle also.
The SK can't give this assistance without his mentor, so his mentor should also do his part to keep the SK up and running.

That said, there's also the standard distance.
During battle the two may always make a little more or less distance from each other but the standard distance should be kept small if possible.
This means it's always a good idea to have for instance a Scrapper be the SK of a Tanker, or a Blaster the SK of a Controller, since their range match up.

Generally it also won't be a problem to have the Scrapper be the SK of the Controller since the SK range is not that small.
If you know how ever of yourself that you always take the maximum possible distance, possibly even with range increasing powers and / or enhancements you simply should not be the mentor of a melee player.

This, by the way, is an addition to my previous post, not a change of opinion.

07/22/06 13:39

thejeni

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RE: Sidekickin'

Julia, oh yes, I learned that a blaster should NOT be the mentor of a tank (espically when that tank is played by an idiot who thinks they want to herd Nemi!). But I have noticed I stand further away from battles than most people (only run up when I need to shot off buckshot or flamethrower, then move back again). So I don't think I'll let the team try to group me up with a melee type ever again.

QUOTE

As for your last question, it depends on the level of the sk. If its a PLing type situation, then go ahead and run. If they die, the debt will disappear soon enough. Also, what AT are they? A tank should be willing to stay to the last inch of life to make sure the rest of the team gets away. If he knows that, he won't mind you running, as long as he doesn't have anyone else he needs to protect with his life. If he doesn't know that, then this is a perfect situation to teach him that.

It wasn't a PL situation. I had a controller as a SK. And in my opinion, if the tank and the healer go down, it is time for me to get out of there (I tend to get a lot of attention from the villains due to the amount of AoE's I have). Every time it happened, I felt I had to stay b/c my sk wasn't running (even though the rest of the party was dropping like flies and telling us to run).

I have no problem taking debt for the team. I know that it doesn't take to many attacks from my part to get the attention of the entire group we are fighting, but I just don't think it is right w/ every battle for me to be the one who has to do the protecting. The mission I was in last night was one of the most frustrating I've done in a long long while (god I forgot how much PUG's can suck until yesterday!)

I'm just so used to being ex'ed. It doesn't matter how far you get in that situation. It has been a very long while since I had a sk...

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07/22/06 13:54

Phedre_D

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RE: Sidekickin'

I do think it is a shared responsibility, but mostly it is an understanding. Neither should dictate. You are a couple. Your buddy was annoying, and he deserved to die. You can't herd while being sidekicked to a blaster. He should have changed his playing style. I hope you quickly left the fool after that one mission.

***FEELS KINDA NAKED WITHOUT A SIGGIE***

07/22/06 14:19

thejeni

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RE: Sidekickin'

QUOTE

Acutally that fool quit the team in the middle of a battle, after he died from grabbing 6 bosses while herding. I was very happy to see him go. And the controller that I sk'ed after wasn't nearly as bad. He just didn't seem to run when it was needed.

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07/22/06 14:25

White Hot Flash

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RE: Sidekickin\'

It also helps to sidekick to someone of a similar AT (def with def,etc.) that way they are doing similar things and are more likely to stay together. On PL teams this is essential, since there are only a couple of teammates actually moving around and doing the work, but it makes sense to match up playstyles as much as you can.

That being said, both parties receive messages saying that the mentor/sidekick is getting too far away, so there is no reason why both people cant keep track of each other. All you need to do is click on your buddy and find them again. Sidekicks should know the risks going in (possibly getting out of range and dying/not gaining xp), but mentors should be willing to keep an extra eye on their charge, or else don't accept one in the first place. Its all about team.

07/22/06 15:00

MightySmiter

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RE: Sidekickin'

i say its the sidekicks jo. he is the one that dies when you guys get split up. the mentor doesnt drop in level, the sk does

COH GUARDIAN
MightySmiter dark/dark/body scrapper lvl 50
-Member of Protectors of Paragon City
PhantomPrincess ill/rad/fire controller lvl 50
-Member of The Golden Council

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07/22/06 15:32

Julia Heartilly

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RE: Sidekickin'

QUOTE

i say its the sidekicks jo. he is the one that dies when you guys get split up. the mentor doesnt drop in level, the sk does

I say with that attitude regarding this subject you should never even propose to SK anyone unless you warned them it's their responsibility to try and chase you if you go mad and run around or take a wrong decision.

07/22/06 15:40

MightySmiter

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RE: Sidekickin'

well, i say this because when i sk, i always make it myjob to chase my mentor. im gratful that they allow me to team with them, so i ty to be as little of a bother as possible. sry if that last one sounded mean

07/22/06 15:47

LordStarwolf

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RE: Sidekickin'

I think I will have to go with Smiter on this one. The lower level toon is getting the benefit, the higher level toon is agreeing to anchor him or herself to the lower level one just so they can be in the group. Completely outside of the parameters of the game itself, basic politenes would suggest that the one getting the benefit should make allowances for the one who is being curtailed by the activity.

Guardian
Avant Guard = Emp/Rad/Psychic Defender Lvl 50 (Dedicated Healer)
Astral Plane = Peacebringer Lvl 50
Spica = Fire/Em/Energy Tank Lvl 50 (Scranker)
Avant Spines = Spines/Regen Scrapper Lvl 50 (AOE King)
Beliskner = Eng/Eng Blaster Lvl 41 (Blapper)
Avant Kin = Ill/Kin Controller Lvl 36
BMG = AR/Dev Blaster Lvl 27
Avant Psy = Psychic Blast/Empathy Defender Lvl 20 (Offender)
Avant Def = Kinetics/Energy Blast Defender Lvl 16
Avant Stone = Stone/Storm Controller lvl 15 (Super Controller)
Umbral Plane = Warshade Lvl 14
Triumph
Lord Yu = MA/Regen Scrapper Lvl 24
Protector
T-99 = Ice/Ice Tanker Lvl 20
Electrostun = Electric/EM Blaster Lvl 21 (Sapper)
Starwolf = Katana/Inv Scrapper Lvl 18 (my very first toon, 3 years ago)
Pinnacle
Avant Claws = Claws/Regen Scrapper Lvl 18 (Non-power pool toon)
Champion
Avant Dragon = Fire/Fire Blaster Lvl 20
Freedom
Avant Arch = Archery/NRG Blaster Lvl 27

And many, many, many more....

07/22/06 16:09

jammer_75k

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RE: Sidekickin'

I would have to agree with White Hot Flash that when you SK its easier to do it with someone of the same AT because then your range and distance will probably be around the same instead of what happened to you with SKing a Tanker.

When I team with my friend he always wants me to SK him because it makes it more fun for him, yet he plays a blaster. The problem with this is that a lot of the times he will get himself into trouble and i'm the one that gets burnt. The last time we ran together i was the leader of a team and in the middle of looking for team members he goes off and provokes an entire group of orange and red trolls. Needless to say I died and he didn't. I got a bunch of debt while he ran off.

When I talked to him later he acted like it was no big deal, but if I had done the same thing he would've tore my head off.

Anyways, I think ultimately the responsibility falls on the person receiving the SKing and not the person giving it.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

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07/22/06 23:44

thejeni

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RE: Sidekickin'

Ok for those of you who say the SK should be the follower. When you are sk'ed do you follow your mentor? And if you die b/c of a distance problem, do you complain or accept it as your fault because you didn't keep up?

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07/23/06 00:48

LordStarwolf

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RE: Sidekickin'

Yes i do, to teh letter. Hypocrisy is a pet peeve of mine. I always practice what i preach. It's up to me to keep up with my mentor. If I don't like how they move I ask for another one or get off the team.

07/23/06 00:57

Sunshine

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RE: Sidekickin'

The responsibility should go to - dont take this the wrong way - the least idiotic of the two. sometimes, the SK wont have a clue and will be jumping aroundall over the place and out of range, and sometimes, the Mentor will jump the gun and go wandering off while the SK is still fighting some stragglers.

If you are fairly sure of your playing abilities (all gameampers should be pretty good), then casually give them a statement at the beginning of the SK deal... be polite or something... "be careful not to wander off, i could die lol" add an 'lol' even if its not funny to add a sense of humor, but they still get the message.

sometimes, its hard though, like one time i was SKing someone, and the group had a runner. i chased him down and pelted him, and i got slightly out of range before i realized it. the SK came very close to dying, but at least i caught my mistake and rushed back to the rescue.

also, one last thing -sage poker advice. "If you sit dowbn at the table, and you dont know who the sucker is, its probably you". wow that sounded mean, not tryin to be. sorry. but if you are both decent players, then you should both keep a glanceful eye and casually know where your sk/mentor is at all times.

Thanks to Death Fetish for kicka$$ siggy!!!

07/23/06 01:06

Julia Heartilly

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RE: Sidekickin\'

Bit late reply, I know.
I forgot the topic. :-P

Anyway, let me (again) try to clarify my perspective with an example; this time for those who say the responsibility is entirely for the lower level because he's the one that benefits from it in specific.

My whole point is and was that the lower level doesn't have to be the only one benefitting and I just can not understand how people can entirely ignore this.

Imagine this:
You're with a team and about to go do a difficult TF.
A problem comes to attention, there's no healer.
Luckily you have someone in your friends list who you know is an awesome healer.
You ask this person if he wants to help and what level he is.
Sure, he doesn't mind but he's only level 32 while the rest of you are level 40-41.
You look for an alternative but after 15 minutes still no one found a healer.
You let your friend come and SK him.
The trial goes fine, you take loads of damage but he manages to keep all of your rambo-wannabees alive.
You're nearing the end of the mission and just as you attack another group of enemies your mother shouts upstairs: "COFFEEEE!!"
"Just getting my coffee guys, brb"
*Sticks on Super Speed and moves to a safe place away from the battle in a moment of extraordinary, yet unforseen, stupidity and then goes downstairs*
Your healer loses SK, gets killed one big smack from a boss and in about 40 seconds the whole rest of the team is wiped out.

You come back and..... blame the healer that he didn't notice your stupidity in the heat of his epic battle while spamming healing all around and thus failed to TP you back to himself in time?
I don't think so... and I don't think you will either.

"Julia, a healer? Not everyone who gets SK is a healer..."
Nope.
"And errr, Julia, coffee? Coffee during a TF? How likely is that?"
*Shrugs*
"Julia it seems to me you kind of wrote this example specifically towards it conclusion and not the other way around..."
Yeah...
"Julia didn't you exaggerate a little bit?"
Yup.

Look, perhaps you don't drink coffee.
Perhaps your SK is not always a healer.
Perhaps you are unlikely to make such a mistake.
Hell! Perhaps you don't even have a mother. >_<

It's all beside the point, naturally I gave an "extreme" example because it makes my point very clear.
The point is that generally, everyone contributes to the team.
Everyone helps.
That time you ALMOST died, you may seen debt get thrown at you if it was for that little guy who fired his, from your perspective inferior, gun at your assaulter.

Why would you SK someone?
You SK a person so that he has the power to help you!

This you should both have your share in responsibility.
Together you must make sure you don't go too far apart, because what really happens when the distance becomes too big?
1) The lower level becomes substantially more vulnerable.
2) The entire team loses a member and with that debuffs, heals, firepower or whatever else that constantly helps them stay on top of things.
Depending on the kind of person you are you might not, unlike your SK, care about the first consequence but the second affects all of your team including yourself.

07/25/06 11:16

blackphoenix

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RE: Sidekickin'

Well, I didn't read what everyone said, but I feel it goes both ways. IMO it depends on the situation. If the sidekick was offered becuase the mentor needed assistance, then the majority falls on the mentor's shoulders. However, if they sidekick requested for whatever reason, or the mentor offers then it falls upon the sidekick to make sure.

I would have to say though, that in every situation, the majority of the resposiblilty would fall upon the sidekick though as they have the most to lose if they get out of range. Still that shouldn't mean that the mentor can just zoom around to where ever they darn well please. If that sidekick dies because you rushed off to have a one on one with some council, then his blood is on your hands. For the sidekick, it's a no-one-to-watch-your-back-but-yourself kinda deal.

07/25/06 11:42

Delphon

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RE: Sidekickin'

KISS

Communicate!!! Talk to your Sk or Mentor as soon as possible so you agree on how to behave.

(deleted 1000 word essay on all the details)

Del

07/25/06 11:58

Kid Standard

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RE: Sidekickin'

I'm of two minds on this. I tank. Lately, that's about all I do, but I've been a blaster and a scrapper as well (I always seem to lose interest in my defender and controller characters quickly, but I've got them too).

My tank was created with a bunch of friends when we wanted to start a new SG. I created him about a month ago, and I rapidly leveled far beyond my friends. One friend has two characters about six levels lower than him, and another has a character about eight levels lower. Silly of me, but I really got into the character.

This means, of course, that I do a lot of sidekicking, not because I want people to help me (because really, when I'm soloing right now, there isn't much in my missions that can get through Resist Physical/Elemental/Energy + Unyielding + Temp. Invul. + Invincibility, all backed with double-slotted SOs in Health and Stamina -- yeah, Kid Standard's a big-time damage soaker for his level), but because I want to be able to play with those friends who created to play with me. I do a lot of Exemping, too.

When I'm SKing one of my friends, and most of the rest of the time, I am the first into the fight, and if things are looking bad, I am almost always the last one out. If I see my health sinking into the red, I shout RUN!, then wait until the last possible moment to get out of there. However, at the point when I have shouted 'RUN!' and waited until that last moment, if they have NOT retreated... well, they're six levels lower at minimum, and it will take far less time for them to lose their debt than it will take me to lose mine. If I went down, they'd go down anyway.

That said, this doesn't happen very often. I won't retreat from the fight until I know I can't get my team through it safely. But at some point, even a tanker has to say 'I can't take this much -- let's go.'

07/25/06 12:01

Cold_Zone_II

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RE: Sidekickin\'

QUOTE

MENTOR Pronunciation Key (mntôr, -tr)
n.

1. A wise and trusted counselor or teacher.
2. Mentor Greek Mythology. Odysseus's trusted counselor, in whose guise Athena became the guardian and teacher of Telemachus.

v. Informal men·tored, men·tor·ing, men·tors
v. intr.

To serve as a trusted counselor or teacher, especially in occupational settings.

v. tr.

To serve as a trusted counselor or teacher to (another person).

This is the definition of the word mentor. Literally, meaning teacher. In that respect, is your teacher responsible for you passing or failing a class? (read CoH mission)

Yes, and No!.

Yes - if the teacher sucks and doesn't know his/her job.

No - if the teacher is top notch, but we spent all night playing CoH, instead of studying for that midterm.

My point is that the responsibility lies with the teacher first, and the student second. It does not depend on only one person. If the teacher ensures that he/she knows his job (subject matter) completely, and teaches it well, then it becomes the students responsibility to be a good learner.

So now I pose a question, if the mentor/teacher is good and knows his job, but all his students are failing, whose fault is it?

CoH Rocks

Blasters kill everything, usually before they get killed themselves. When it comes to dealing pain, a blaster has no equal. We just have a hard time taking our own medicine! So we love Tanks and 'fenders!

07/25/06 12:18

Malady_Incarnate_2001

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RE: Sidekickin'

Before I start writing my opinion, I'd just like to point out that I didn't read every post above mine. If I repeat something or rehash an argument, I apologize.

Here's my philosophy on SKs - It's a team effort, but the mentor won't die if he/she runs away from the group.

Loosely translated, that means - If you're someone's SK, it would behoove you to pay attention to where your mentor is. You can't really blame him/her if you get killed out of SK range...extreme circumstances permitting.

Want to combat this little situation? Here's how: I understand that you don't always have a perfect blend of ATs, but it's best to couple similar ATs together for SK purposes. Blasters and Controllers normally stand in the back of the group and plug away at the baddies - Put them together. Tankers and Scrappers normally run headlong into the fray - Put them together. As for Defenders, they're an interesting lot. The build will tell you who should pick him/her up. It might seem like a pain, but I practice this pretty often. If there's an available mentor that better suits my SK, I'll drop him/her and ask the other guy to latch on.

Malady

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here." - William Shakespeare

CoH - Mr Brightside - Level 50 Illusion/Radiation Controller - Guardian

CoH - Mynd Warp - Level 38 Earth/Storm Controller - Liberty

CoH - Frygyd - Level 16 Ice/Storm Controller - Triumph

07/25/06 13:20

LordStarwolf

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RE: Sidekickin'

Well said Mal. I think that pretty well sums it up perfectly.

07/25/06 14:45

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