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Redweaver
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I tell PvPers to get their game on in one of the hundreds of games with PvP because I don't really care which game gives me my PvE only experience. It doesn't have to be DDO, or LotRO, or any specific franchise. I just want a quality PvE only MMO, and I don't really care what world it's set in, so long as it's good and fun to play.
I've never said it has to be this game or that game, just a game. Generic_Fantasy_PvE-only_MMO_01 would suit me (and likely others) just fine.
I want a current-generation, modern-day, professionally produced, pay-to-play, graphical, fantasy or sci-fi, MMORPG in the style of EQ, WoW, SWG, DDO, LotRO, etc...WITHOUT PVP. Not with optional PvP. Not with consentual PvP. Not with seperate PvP servers. Not with a /duel command. Not with arenas. Not with whatever form of PvP you try to force us to just ignore so you can continue to dominate the marketplace. No PvP at all.
As long as it fits this bill, I'll be happy for many years, and some company will get all those years worth of subscription dollars from me.
Oh, and to head any snide attempts at lame humor off at the pass. I'm an adult. Toontown, Hello Kitty, and the Sims don't cut it. Text based MUDs have long since lost their appeal. Not likeing PvP does not make me a child, neither does it mean I'm not brave enough, or good enough, or that I don't have skeelz, or any other BS insult you feel like tossing out to make yourself feel superior. I prefer COOPERATION to COMPETITION...that is all. I'm still a man, an adult, who is good at playing video games, and has enough bravery to get me through this lifetime.
I'd have some sympathy for PvPers if:
There weren't already a few hundred MMOs available with PvP.
There weren't already dozens of MMOs on the horizon with PvP.
There were any quality MMOs for adults without PvP.
There were any quality MMOs for adults in development without PvP.
PvPers currently have 100% of the market for all current MMOs and all about-to-come-out MMOs.
I frankly don't give a damn about the "good business sense" of it (good business sense would be to provide what your competitors don't, not always to copy what your competitors have, and currently there are no competitors for a PvP-free MMO...so why not corner the market and become the trendsetter that in future generations is hailed as the grandfather of a new paradigm), or how many players want it (because there are players that want a PvP-free MMO...just read this forum and you'll find them. The market most certainly exists...a company just has to be willing to take the risk and tap that market).
PvP is already in 100% of the MMOs...this doesn't mean it's so popular that a business will fail without it, it just means that there's competition for customers and companies don't like to be exclusionary...even when being exclusive can be just as profitable (pure speculation that a PvP-free MMO would be profitable, true...but we won't know until one exists. Any statements otherwise are just self-serving BS to maintain the statis quo because it gets PvPers what they want...naturally they are going to say it's the most profitable way to do things and that MMOs will fail without it). Until an MMO comes out without PvP, any statements about how well or poorly such a game would do profit-wise is pure, unfounded speculation, a thought excersize at best.
Herein lies the problem though: When does this game come?
Every game that comes out is going to have a PvPers interest, every single one. There's always going to be someone who will say, "but this is too big, or too popular to just tell me to get my PvP elsewhere".
Each time a new game is announced, a PvPer will say, "I want to play this game. I'm bored with my current game. No other game available is new and shiney like this one. I can't wait for the game being released next month. I want PvP. I don't care that there are a couple hundred games already available with PvP. I don't care that there are a couple hundred more coming out soon with PvP. I am currently interested in this game (for whatever reason, whether it's the franchise/IP, or the ruleset, or their a fan of the developers...there's always a reason). Since I want this game and no other, and I can't wait for the next game, and I want PvP...this game must have PvP."
Do you see the vicious cycle?
So if we let DDO go because it's a popular franchise, and we let LotRO go because it's a big IP, and CoH/V because comic books are poplar, and AoC because some PvPers grew up reading Conan, and Warhammer, and Vanguard, and Game_X, and Game_Y...then when do we get to put our foot down and say "DAMMIT! WE GET THIS ONE!"?
If we have to continually let it go because of whatever reason a PvPer has...then when do the tables get to be turned?
What it is going to take is two things.
One, the PvP community is going to have to let one upcomming game go. They are just going to have to suffer one game to exist without PvP. They are going to have to refrain from requesting it, refrain from posting on forums about how PvP needs to be in Game_X, refrain from giving Game_X bad reviews because it doesn't have PvP. In other words, the PvP crowd is going to have to get over themselves enough to not have to force their way into every single MMO from now to the end of the internet. The next time an MMO is announced, and it's said PvP won't be a part of it LEAVE IT THE HECK ALONE AND DON'T SAY ONE DAMN WORD! SUCK IT UP AND STFU AND I DON'T CARE HOW MANY ANALOGIES YOU COME UP WITH ABOUT BEING THIRSTY OR HUNGRY OR BUSINESS MODELS OR FAST FOOD OR WHATEVER.
I know it's not the PvPers that make the games, but thier highly vocal outcry influences bean counters who are scared of losing subscriptions, but aren't considering the subscriptions that may be gained from the people who won't touch MMOs because they have PvP. This market segment is currently an unknown, and is being ignored...and no doubt PvPers will blithely pretend they don't exist.
Two, a game company is going to have to gamble that a PvE-only game really can be successful and then stick by the PvE-only decision NO MATTER HOW MANY PVPERS SAY EVERY MMO MUST HAVE PVP.
Minimal impact is not the same as no impact.
Optional PvP is not the same as no PvP.
Strawberry ice cream with the strawberries picked out is not the same as vanilla ice cream.
A cheeseburger with the toppings scraped off is not the same as a plain cheeseburger.
A cell phone with a camera that you don't use is not the same as a cell phone without a camera.
We consumers have the option to buy vanilla ice cream, or a plain cheeseburger, or a cell phone without a camera...but we have no choice in MMOs.
I'm not judging this or that system or comparing anything to anything else. I'm talking about diversity in the marketplace and consumer options to be able to buy an MMO with PvP or an MMO without PvP.
We as consumers deserve that choice.
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| 09/17/06 14:01 |
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Redweaver
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| RE: Marketplace Diversity |
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My intention seems to be continually misunderstood and misinterpreted on other boards.
I'm not trying to alter DDO, either now or in the future. I'm not trying to alter any existing game. I'm not trying to shut PvPers out of the marketplace. I'm not trying to say PvPers shouldn't be allowed to PvP if that's what they desire.
I'm talking about specialization and diversity. Companies that offer products that cater to a specific market.
Take fishing. They have open-faced and closed-faced rods, fly fishing rods, deep sea fishing rods, ice fishing rods. Each one is what it is and nothing else. No one tries to force anyone to go fly fishing with a deep sea fishing set up.
Yet, with MMOs, such a choice isn't available. If you want an MMO, you currently MUST buy one with PvP. There isn't any choice in the matter. That's like forcing someone to buy a fly fishing rod when they want to go ice fishing. It's ludicrous and absurd. Yet, somehow, it's not ludicrous and absurd to force anyone who wants an MMO to buy one with PvP.
We have boat racing games and car racing games, and neither tries to be what the other is. We have the option to buy khakis or blue jeans for pants, and no one says a word. We can choose whether to buy vanilla ice cream or strawberry ice cream as our preference dictates. We can buy a cell phone without a camera in it if we really don't want a camera in our cell phone. We can purchase sandals if we really don't want hiking boots. We can buy a car if we feel a pick-up truck is too big for our needs. We can choose to go out to eat for steak or run through a fast food drive through for burgers, and no one has any disparaging remarks about it.
So why is it so strange to want an MMO that's PvE only?
I see no difference at all between these examples and wanting an MMO without PvP. It's just another choice of one specialized product over the other.
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 09/18/06 05:10 |
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Redweaver
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| RE: Marketplace Diversity |
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Take PvP out of my argument, and make it crafting instead. There's a core group of players who love crafting, just like there's a group that loves PvP. Crafting is optional, just like PvP tries to be. Adding crafting to an MMO can bring in additional players and subscriptions. Crafting is a very big deal to some players, and those players want to have the option to craft in their MMOs. If you leave crafting out, you risk alienating the group of players that wants crafting and won't play an MMO without it...just like PvP.
Easy to draw parallels, yes? Do you argue with any of those assertions?
My response: City of Heros/Villians.
CoH/V is a popular, mainstream MMO, yes? CoH/V is professionally produced, yes? It's pay-to-play subscription based, yes? Whether you actually happen to like CoH/V or not, would you try to argue that it isn't a well-made game? Would you argue that CoH/V isn't competative, or profitable? Would you try to say that CoH/V isn't a "big name" MMO? CoH/V is well marketed, maintained, has many content patches and bug fixes, right? CoH/V has pretty good graphic, fairly "normal" MMO gameplay, character development/advancement, monsters to fight, raiding, etc. CoH/V offers pretty much everything a standard MMO offers...
Except crafting.
So, right there, we have a choice available on the market that offers everything a "normal" MMO offers except for one optional thing. Would it hurt CoH/V to add crafting? I doubt it. Would CoH/V gain players/subscriptions by adding crafting? Likely. But it doesn't have crafting, it isn't trying to add crafting just to draw extra players, and there's no way you can pretend CoH/V isn't successful, profitable, and competative on the market with MMOs that do offer crafting.
So why is it such a stretch of logic to change crafting in all of that to PvP?
I don't see the difference.
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 09/19/06 16:09 |
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Redweaver
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| RE: Marketplace Diversity |
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Does NO ONE have anything to say about this? Am I talking to myself?
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 09/19/06 16:10 |
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MindBullets
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| RE: Marketplace Diversity |
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Most companies are in it to make money. In order to make money they have to make a game and sell it. To sell it they think the game has to have PVP in it. Why? Because the loudest voices demand PVP, now this might not be the majority, but the loudest whiner/voice gets heard.
Persionally I like PVP sometimes, but in some games I wich it was not there. Take DDO for example, it really does not need ANY pvp, it hold up on its own. I mean, people don't like pvp in pen and paper games, why would they need it in a game based off a one. But it really does not make a difference until the loudest voice calls for a game with no pvp, and only a killer PVE.
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| 09/21/06 11:22 |
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thejeni
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| RE: Marketplace Diversity |
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| QUOTE | | Does NO ONE have anything to say about this? Am I talking to myself? |
I've read your posts a few times now, and it is just so hard for me...
I hate PvP... I won't play a game that has open PvP any more (Lineage2 taught me how much i did NOT enjoy that)...
I guess I would have to agree with a lot you say. There are no games that cater to those of us that PvE. CoH used to (a long, long time ago), but they succumbed to pvp... slowly at first with just the arena, then with the release of CoV there were entire zones created for it. One of the things I loved about CoH was the lack of PvP. Also in the 2 years(ish) that I played, I can count the number of times I did PvP on one hand.
DDO tried, but the PvP crowd was just to vocal for them to resist putting it in. LotRO originally wasn't going to have it, but because of the rants, they came up with another way to implement it.
I would LOVE to play a game that was just PvE, with other people who enjoyed playing PvE in MMOs for the teaming, not the killing of other characters... I just don't see it happening. I'm seeing a trend of PvP becoming more and more optional or consensual, but I just can't see the gaming companies doing it.
Of course all it takes is one. One game to prove to the rest of the that you can still have subscribers with out having PvP... I just can't see anyone willing to make that leap yet. All those that have had the intention of doing it, change their minds quickly.
Siggy created by DeathFetish.
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| 09/24/06 12:55 |
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Madclergy
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| RE: Marketplace Diversity |
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I will create it!!! lol, but I will need...alot of money, a fully functionaly programming team (including artists) and an unlimited supply of hotpockets, they help me focus.
But I hear ya, PvP is not what its about for me either...but I am really tolerant of it, as long as I don't head to a mish and get slaughtered by a bunch of even level people that get their jollies from doing exactly that then I am fine. I can turn down requests to PvP, avoid the directed spots for it, ect...thats why I am so tolerant.
Pinnacle (My server of love)
Geo Wizard: Lvl 50 Earth/Kin With Speed Boost and Stamina yay. Not to mention kick butt holds. Including Volcanic Gases, hehe. And now with his own moronic Animated Stone. And Transference!!! New and improved, 3 lvls in one day, adding to his arsenal Fulcrum Shift..oh yea. Can't wait to get some time under his belt now. I can now hurl Boulders....omfg no he didn't :) I look so pimp in my newest power...its brown and bumpy all over..can you guess?... Thats right is Stone Armor and it is kick butt. Fissure rocks my world! Fifty soon. Fifty on 12-10-2005 at 12:35am after 400hrs of hard labor Wanna throw a special shout out to Illusion Mastor, CBail, Mudpuppy, Jupiter Sweets, Dark Hollow, Lethal Fury, Pan, Majin Tank, Lotus of Death, and all the others i know I am forgetting for their help. And also to all the gameampers here at gameamp whom without I would never have made it.
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| 09/30/06 09:47 |
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SileaneNomm
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| RE: Marketplace Diversity |
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Let me start of with...
I'm a 36 yr old male who grew up with PnP DnD, Rolemaster, Twilight 2000, etc. When the games came out on the Apple II, I bought them and played them into the wee hours of the morning. I watched them go from green lines to what we have today.
I DESPISE UNLIMITED PVP. If you want to have it optional, sure have at it, if it's only in certain areas that I can avoid, enjoy yourselves. I will not play any MMO that has PvP anytime, anywhere.
I don't know about you guys, but every once in a while, I'll take my newly acquired loot down to one of the lower level taverns and give it away. I'll stand near the door for a bit healing, hasting and removing curses. I'll help anyone that asks.
The concept of running around killing other people's characters just so you can loot their hard earned stuff is just plain alien to me. Phew, had to get that out.. :)
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| 12/07/06 15:43 |
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MikesterBrau
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| RE: Marketplace Diversity |
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Coming in very late on this one Redweaver but it is obvious that you have put a lot of thought in to what you had to say and said somethings that needed to be said but I think the intial lack of response may have been due to the length of the message. It was a whole lot to take in during one sitting but bet they sure could have used you at a few game developer conferences.
I think a lot of more experience and older players share many of your opinions we just are not as vehment or vocal as the PVP fans. Also when revenue does not meet expectations companies quickly cave to the taunts of the more vigourous voices in a particular genre of fandom. I loved Shadowbane for two years which was a heavy PVP game but we managed to play that game without giving in to unprovoked or random PVP and tried to keep to ourselves and build our city up. We tried to get a non PVP server but the powers that be thought that impractical given the games design so we played the cards we were dealt the best we could.
Anyhow just wanted to let you know your work was noticed and that you have some folks out in the lands that share many of your sentiments.
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| 12/11/06 15:39 |
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MikesterBrau
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| RE: Marketplace Diversity |
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Some other great insights from other folks as well. I would also add I do not care much for PVP for another reason in that it always seems to be accompanied by trashtalk and false bravado. I am ok with the way it is handled in EQ2 on the PVE servers and you can even set your toon pref. to automatically turn down dueling requests.
Also the way it is implemented in a game and the atmosphere created by the developers seems to really have an impact on how it is percieved and handled by the players.
On the other hand it was fun at times when our guild was labled a bunch of carebears in Shadowbane and another guild tried rolling us and well they got a bit of an unexpected defeat and a kindly nice fight and other compasionate responses after a resounding victory for our little band of the underestimated warrior poets. :)
Great conversation here, well done to all contributors.
Founder of Skara Brae (Meta) Guild
http://everquest2.gameamp.com
Skara Brae Main Page: http://www.bardstavern.net
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| 12/11/06 15:49 |
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Redweaver
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| RE: Marketplace Diversity |
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My problem isn't that PvP exists, or that people enjoy doing it, or any of the other myriad reasons people have given as to why they PvP.
My problem is totally and 100% with the game developers that take the "do what that game did with a couple differences" approach to MMO creation.
WoW did amazingly well, so, in order to do amazingly well, you must clone WoW.
That's utter garbage false-hood.
We already have a glut of same-old, same-old MMOs that all have the same feature set and are directly competeing for subscribers. We don't need any more WoW clones. We have plenty.
So why will no company try to corner the market on uncontested subscribers? Wouldn't it seem to be logical that by offering what no other company offers you will both get those customers that don't want what that other company offers (and thereby, their money), and create a new market niche that other can and will emulate?
My problem is also with not even having the option available to purchase the product I'm looking to purchase.
You like PvP? Play a game that caters to it. Like to PvP occasionally? Play a game that has optional, consentual PvP.
Don't like PvP at all? Tough noogies...suck it up or don't play MMOs.
That I find to be a completely illogical and unprofitable stance to take in the business world.
Offer what your competators don't and reap the rewards. Offer what your competators do better, and forever be an "also ran".
The market is ripe and overdue for a company with the stones to step up and try something that isn't WoW in a new wrapper.
Have fun, do it well, and share your knowledge.
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| 12/15/06 14:22 |
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thejeni
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| RE: Marketplace Diversity |
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| QUOTE | | So why will no company try to corner the market on uncontested subscribers? Wouldn't it seem to be logical that by offering what no other company offers you will both get those customers that don't want what that other company offers (and thereby, their money), and create a new market niche that other can and will emulate? |
At some point in time we may see this. But if you look at all the games coming out next year, you will see that a lot of them are similar to eachother or other MMOs we've seen in the past. They of course have a few things to set them apart, but they seem to all be taking baby steps with breaking out of what's been done.
I think we need to give the dev's some time. And keep posting our thoughts about PvP on their forums, so they are aware that there are those out there, who don't enjoy it.
Siggy created by DeathFetish.
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| 12/21/06 10:23 |
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