GameAmp: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

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Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

Reason: The game design of PvE effects for titles is contrary to initial (proclaimed) underlying principles of Guild Wars game play, initial (and ongoing) promotions for Guild Wars, and the player base, which Guild Wars (supposedly) sought.
Any change to game play, which yields a significant advantage for time spent in game over casual players is contrary to the claims of ArenaNet about Guild Wars, and should be prevented/rescinded.

From press release regarding Guild Wars debut at E3 2003 http://www.arena.net/news/press/pr_22_apr_03.html:
"Mike O'Brien, the creator and architect of Battle.net, points out 'Our vision has been to create a game that rewards skill and inventiveness rather than hundreds of hours of play, so we've built Guild Wars from the ground up to be a balanced environment where players of all skill levels can compete for recognition and prizes.'"

From Gamasutra interview with Guild Wars producer Jeff Strain, in the online article " Social Game, not Social Life? ArenaNet on Guild Wars and the “Casual” MMORPG" http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20050330/gillen_01.shtml:
"JS: I think there's different types of rewards. You either reward them for time – that is, investment. The RPG reward. Alternatively, you reward them for their skill, which is the strategy game reward. Some companies reward people for money. There's some companies online which will power-level for you, which is just a conversion of money for time. I think that games that reward time, and particularly games that reward extreme amounts of time, appeal to a fairly narrow subset of the overall population. I think people appreciate a game where they feel their skill as a gamer and the choices that they're making are actually making the difference. I think that appeals to a lot broader group.

JS: You'll often hear us say that Guild Wars is a game without the grind. However, if you want to spend 100 hours trying to get a specific upgrade for an item, like a dragon-tooth hilt and a wyvern skill scabbard for your sword, that's fine. You have a specific goal in mind, and you want that item. What's not fine is “at level 20 I can access this dungeon, and at level 30 I can access that dungeon and there's a 1000 hours between them”. Obviously, the goals are shorter than that, or you just wouldn't do it… but we very much differentiate types of time sinks. And that differentiation is if it's for fun, or whether it's to arbitrarily take and stretch the 70 hours of content you have for game and stretch it over a thousand hours. Is it for fun or is it to try and get people addicted, so that you can collect another month of subscription fees?

You have to be able to make a judgement call. You look at the activities players are doing, and divide them into “People do that because it's fun” and “People do that because they have to”. Let's keep the stuff that's fun."

From online interview of Jeff Strain by "Finger" at Telefragged.com http://www.telefragged.com/interviews/guildwars/:
"Jeff Strain: Player-vs.-player in Guild Wars is a tremendous amount of fun, but Guild Wars is not designed to appeal only to PvP players. The cooperative missions and quests in Guild Wars are the beginning of a story arc that spans numerous expansion chapters for the next several years. Since Guild Wars is a skill based game, rather than a game in which only those who have thousands of disposable hours will ever see the "cool" content, we can design each of these new chapters around the assumption that all players have reached the maximum level, or "ascension." This means that all of the ongoing content, whether through new chapters or streamed live into the existing game, is enjoyable by everyone, and we don’t have to water down the content by dividing it among the "elite" players and the more casual players. Gamers who enjoy cooperative or even solo gaming will find Guild Wars a refreshing change from endless FedEx quests and level grinding, even if they never venture in the competitive play areas."

From the Guild Wars web site http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/synopsis/:
"You don't have to spend countless hours on a leveling treadmill to get to the interesting parts of the game, because combat is designed to be strategically interesting and challenging right from the beginning. You don't have to spend hours running around the world to prepare for a quest, because Guild Wars allows you to instantly travel to the beginning of any quest that you've previously unlocked."

"The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete."

Compared to:
From "Guild Wars Insider - Issue #01" http://www.guildwars.com/insider/issue01.html:
"Earning ranks in some titles will now give you in-game bonuses. One example of this new type of title is the Lightbringer. When displayed, this title gives you damage reduction and extra damage against demons. There will even be some PvE-only skills you can learn that become more powerful with each rank of the Lightbringer title.

We’ll also be updating some existing titles this way. For instance, after Nightfall releases, you’ll actually have a chance of successfully removing a magic component, like a Fiery Sword Hilt, without destroying the item it’s attached to. The Wisdom title (earned by identifying items) will improve your ability to do this."

If you agree that the implementation of PvE effects for titles are at best not in the spirit of Guild Wars game design, and potentially a significant disadvantage for casual players then please sign below.

If you disagree, please post a valid reason why.

10/25/06 17:51

sirus thevirus

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

Im not in the mood to read that as its about midnight here but i got the jist of it i think. Its arena-nets game..if they want to edit it thats up to them, thats my opinion, theres no point objecting to a decision made by them like this because im sure theyve looked at it from most angles and come to the appropriate decision.

Just so i know who started the thread, account name and cred lvl have disappeared.

10/25/06 17:56

imnotstupid two

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

/not signed

my reasons are my own:
the titles that give bonuses take skill to get thus there is skill involved

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

10/25/06 17:58

SoulessSyphon

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

/signed

I believe titles should only be cosmetic.

This is, as you said, rewarding people with too much time on their hands, which is, as you quoted, against what the creators said.

10/25/06 18:02

Seventy-Seven

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

You post some valid points, I personally think A-net will NOT remove the titles, just too many people like them and have worked hard to obtain them.

My personal view is I do not like them I find it annoying when trying to click a single persons name in a group, if the titles were persistant that would be fine. I know alot of the designers are from diablo 2, and D2 had titles but they were very limited, It seems to me you can get title in Guild Wars for just about anything. So in other words, less titles and make them "stick" on the names.

10/25/06 18:09

Mordakaida

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

"not sign"

You don't have to grind.. what I have seen from those titles is you earn from doing quests..

who said you have to do get those points in that. sure it's a thing you will have to spend time in but you have to spend time in anything. There is always going to be a little grinding in a game.

You have valid points but I like the feature. ^^

10/25/06 18:11

mwpeck

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

Lets look at it this way, I personally dont play that much, somewhat 'casual'. I have 95% exploration title on my warrior and wisdom title(1) on my monk. I have maybe 500 hours on my monk and 600 hours on my warrior, my other 2 characters combined have less than 100 hours. All this in over 13 months.

I am GLAD they are doing the titles, even knowing that those botters(or even those who farm a lot) will get rewarded for their golds.

Regaurdless of what Anet has said I would rather get a reward for the time I HAVE played, then play all this time and not get much at all. I will be glad to have an increased chance to not break a weapon when I salvage a mod. I can't understand those who say this is bad simply because they dont have titles. With no more than 1400 hours on my account in 13 months, I have been able to obtain 2 displayable titles. Though titles didnt come out till around factions, I was STILL able to get them without playing much.

If you dont have the titles, then maybe you will try to play more to reap the benefits. Anet is FINALLY giving those who have gotten titles, their reward. It was deserved and highly needed. If I had known rewards were going to be added when titles were added I guarentee you that my monk would have at least lvl 2 wisdom title, and my warrior would have 100% exploration.

They are also doing this to get people to play the game more, when people have something to look forward to, they will have more fun doing it, when they have more fun doing it, they will play for longer. Therefore increasing the chance they will buy the next chapter.


Characters: • Crimson The Fierce • Combustible Crimson • Crimson Denied • Crimson The Sniper • Crimson The Healer • Crimson The Reaper

10/25/06 18:12

2xKnight

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

QUOTE

I completely disagree. Titles can be earned by even casual gamers. Therefor the very basis for your petition is flawed. From what I've heard about the possible in game effect of titles, there isn't that much advantage being given to those with them. I firmly believe that any unfair advantage that does slip past the development team will not be in the game for very long.

Oh...

/not signed

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10/25/06 18:30

Peter_Whatshername

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

QUOTE

Compared to:
From "Guild Wars Insider - Issue #01" http://www.guildwars.com/insider/issue01.html:
"Earning ranks in some titles will now give you in-game bonuses. One example of this new type of title is the Lightbringer. When displayed, this title gives you damage reduction and extra damage against demons. There will even be some PvE-only skills you can learn that become more powerful with each rank of the Lightbringer title.

We’ll also be updating some existing titles this way. For instance, after Nightfall releases, you’ll actually have a chance of successfully removing a magic component, like a Fiery Sword Hilt, without destroying the item it’s attached to. The Wisdom title (earned by identifying items) will improve your ability to do this."

If you agree that the implementation of PvE effects for titles are at best not in the spirit of Guild Wars game design, and potentially a significant disadvantage for casual players then please sign below.

If you disagree, please post a valid reason why.

/unsignedbecasueidissagree

I know nothing about this lightbringer title, but it applies to PvE, and certain PvE skills. since you would only encounter PvE skills in...PvE, I don't see how they would be any different from things like elite skills which a PvE charecter must go out and find on theri own(usually in the middle of nowhere), or armour infusion which can be a whole little quest in itself. Only if the damage reduction bonus from lightbringer applies in PvP would I find issue.

Since the title applies to PvE skills, I would imagine it is based on the charecter's progression through the story. If so, then it is just like the many skills you had to get from a skill trainer in some town you haven't been to yet, or the more powerful weapon you didn't get till half way through the game. Roleplaying in Gw has always been about progresivly unlocking skills and such over time.

Is for upgrades to other titles, I can't say for certain till I hear what these bonuses are. I can say that I see no problem with the wisdom title thing, since it costs a heck of a lot of gold and time to earn it...I imagine the increased risk of failure in salvaging a specific mod is worth the money and time not spent to get a better chance at success.

In closing, although in a way these effects would give an advantage in PvE (as far as my understanding goes, there is no noticeable effect to PvP) these advantages would be no different from any of the other litle things we have had to deal with since the game's start.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Scientology <--click!...Thanks for the touch-up Seventy-Seven!!!

10/25/06 18:42

Danisth

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

/signed

I don't like the idea of people with more time on their hands then me being superior in game to me, thats not the idea of guild wars.

10/25/06 18:57

NecroRebel

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

I actually agree that it's against many of the stated principles of Guild Wars to give people a non-cosmetic reward for time played, but I still won't sign any such petition until such a time when I know how the bonuses actually work out.

Depending on how great the bonuses are and how easy or difficult they are to get, it could be still be balanced while still giving people an incentive to actually work towards some of the titles. For example, -1 damage per hit from Demons after you've killed 10 Demons isn't too major if Demons consistently deal 50+ damage per strike (which all of the ones currently ingame do now), and if you get another -1 after killing 100, 1000, and 10000 Demons, that's still only -4 damage out of 50 or more. The same is true if it's a 2% extra chance of getting the desired mod without destroying the weapon from each level of Wisdom, depending on what the chance is naturally (if it's 10%, a 2% boost is huge, but if it's 80%, a 2% boost isn't).

I'm gonna adopt a wait-and-see attitude as far as the title-based bonuses go... For now, although I don't like the idea, I'm not gonna jump to conclusions and say "That's stupid and gamebreaking and overpowered," ESPECIALLY if it's PvE-only.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

10/25/06 19:03

Genesis_Dragon

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

I also like the idea of being rewarded for playing... I can't sign this.

It won't me me any better than anyone else because I play more towards titles, I will get better the more i play regardless of rewards. These rewards just give me incentive to achieve more.

Legendary Defender of Ascalon Guide

10/25/06 19:04

Future Man

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

/signed

First off, its the principal of the matter.
Give an inch, take a mile so to speak

2nd off, you may argue that PvE skills don't matter. but they do. If you have damage reduction you can farm better, when means you get beter equiptment which means you unlock more items and skills. It's a snowball effect.

This game is becoming more like Everquest every month. UGH, this is what i wanted to avoid.

I the fact that because I am able to effectivly reason i can put together new builds and take down a person who plays 1000 hours a week.

but if you want to give the 40 years old who us unemployed and lives in his parents basement an advantage just because the sunlight now burns him when it hits his skin...fine

this petion will have absolutly no affect on Guildwars in anyways shape or form. But all these new expansions and rules are only serving to make the game LESS accessible

10/25/06 19:05

Cross

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Joined: 05/06/2006
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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

Well I donno about it being easy for the common player o get all these titles as I only have like the second on exploring on one char and the first on exploring on another char. Like most I don't have the time to play as much as most I run across but then the titles never really ment anything but who had more time to me anyway as it is possible with time to get them all.

But on the other hand it isn't going to bother me if they reward the ones that play all the time, I do just fine without any extra advantages.

So I'm not signing but not saying their actions are right either.

I'm neither here nor there but everywhere. I am who I am and nothing more but yet I'm nothing less than what I strive to be.

10/25/06 19:40

Critis Coldfire

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RE: Petition for the Omission/Removal of PvE effects for titles.

I think anet's reasoning on this is they need to give people who play guild wars alot something else to do so they won't get bored and quit playing as I have seen happen to quite a few entire guilds.

People are also less likely to buy new GW chapters if they are bored with the game.

In the above petition it is mentioned that its possible to farm repeadtly till you get the item you want but you don't have too. Its the same with the titles.. if you don't want to take the time to get them you don't have too.

Not having a title isn't anyones fault but your own, and somene else shouldn't be punished for simply having the time to achieve something even if it is silly to do nothing but play a game.

I agree that the titles shouldn't give an unfair advantage in pvp though I don't really see what the harm would be in pve as it would only be helping your party.

If you don't have much time on your hands you could try to figure out a way to play the game and slowly work your way to getting a title.

Earning a title is supposed to be an achievement, and if they where easy to get people would quickly lose interest.

Although I think some sort of permanent area with mini games would be a better way to keep everyone happy.

/unsigned

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

10/25/06 20:21

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