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Belshazaarswrath

Posts: 6
Joined: 12/29/2005
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Make gw an mmorpg again

Well I have been playing guild wars less and less recently. This is due to the fact that most of the game has turned into a 1 man thing. Sure I do some things with my guild but then I think to myself(wow i could henched this and been done 20 mins ago). This is when they are helping me. The main reason for this that I think is the case is as follows.

A.) henchmen being too useful
B.) heroe's being WAY too helpful

I mean back in the day things were actually difficult and required groups and you would have alot more fun. Now the game seems like a regular old rpg just with no way to make money on account that all the merchants are too cheap to buy anything. It took me 4 hours to sell a perfect sword for 15k so don't tell me the economy is fine(this sword was from factions too not inscribable). So what I suggest is this.

A.)(this should be easy) Limit any party with 1 hero and never make it necessary to have them ina mission(make them an ally instead ofa party member)

B.) dumb down the henchmen. They are WAY to smart. Comparing them to the enemies they fight they are far smarter. So they should make them slightly better than monsters thats it. Seriously guildwars since about last spring guildwars has gone waaaay downhill. Getting less and less focused on the party aspect and focusing on the individual which is what most rpgs do but they are far more story based and integrate it bettter. OPh and please don't say "why don't you jsut quit?" beacuse if yo udo you will make me incredibly angry and I will consider this trolling.

01/15/07 12:26

Jade Shane

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

wow I never thought this was going to be something I would see eye to eye on when I opened this topic, but after thinking about it I see what you were saying and i have to agree with you.

There was a mission I did recently that I had to do with a group originally and I didn't even think much about it, but last time I did it it was with henchmen.

Something I was wondering though...if you have heros as allies then wouldnt it make it so you can have a pug of 8 and then +allies? That would be the only possible downfall I can see from the whole thing, but besides that good post like usual :P

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01/15/07 12:33

Sixchr

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

I'm 100% with you on this. Because Henchies + Heroes are pretty smart (even though they still have those dumb moments), things are WWWAAAYYY too easy. Now people can hench any mission in the game without an issue. I've even began henching th Realm of Torment because it's so easy. I think they should increase the difficulty on the Eenemies not the Heroes/henchies, or we'll be back where we started, henchies/heroes that don't get out of AoEs and such. But I'm am with Anet possibly changing something involving the enemies or heroes/henchies AI.

QUOTE

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01/15/07 12:33

Wyat_hawke

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

I do agree with you on all points, but right now I don't think it would be off any help.

You see the main problem isn't the heroes, the biggest problem is people... Most towns and outposts in Tyria and Cantha look like ghost towns, with no other players... I don't think this game can support a fourth expansion with totally new land anymore, then it definately would be 1 man against it all...

The next expansion should require you to own at least 1 of the older games. Getting some new missions and a deeper storyline there would be much better than a completely new map (in my opinion).

01/15/07 12:35

IceWarrior98

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

Henchman arn't smart, what are you playing? My henchman die in the first 2 minutes of starting an explorable area or mission. As for the heros, they were added to make it so you didn't have to spend forever searching for a party that isn't even good in the first place. Sure the heros should be slimmed down to 1 or 2 but they are a part of the party for a reason.

Besides, GW never was a true MMORPG. True MMORPGs are games like WoW or Silkroad. Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game..Theres nothing really that massive about it unless you have more than one Chapter and the Multiplayer only goes as high as 8 total (May be more in a place ive never been yet I dunno.) But thats what you get for playing a game that runs off your computer instead of official servers.

So yea, henchmen arn't smart and heros are only as powerful as you make them so really I don't see a problem with it especially since I have a hard enough time finding a group to join even for a simple mission that takes like 10 minutes to complete. If anything they should make it so you can join a random party that way no ones being biased on Profession and everyone can do it.

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01/15/07 12:35

Belshazaarswrath

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

QUOTE

I've even began henching the Realm of Torment because it's so easy.

That is where they come in handy the most sadly.

01/15/07 12:36

kyro27

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

sorry i dont like failing, ill play with my guildies and heroes and enjoy it too.

my point, pugs usually suck 9/10

01/15/07 12:38

The Sister

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

On this issue, you might be surprised to find that when it comes to general quests/missions, I tend to agree with you. I only do them now when I want something out of it, I don't do it for the experience gained from it or whatever. For instance, I completed NF with my monk, because I wanted endgame armour, not because I like to do PvE. I cap skills because I want them to be unlocked for PvP. I kill things because I want to make money for armour etc. I do 90% of all this with hench, or solo. And the reason is because I can. Pick-up-groups are unreliable, in that some will be good, some will be less good. Hench/Heroes are whatever you make them. So I take hench/heroes because I can, because it is faster/easier to do so.

I lost my love for the PvE aspect of GW a long time ago, but luckily there is an even better PvP side to back it up, which is fantastic. Perhaps something to consider if you are getting tired of PvE.

My fondest memories of GW, from back when I started, was finding nice groups to do a mission with. You could chat along the way, and share jokes. Although this is of course not dead, it is much less common, due to the Hero/Hench system, in my opinion. Which makes for completing things much easier, but in terms of a community it's not really aiding the cause.

01/15/07 12:40

Lady Alica

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

QUOTE

dumb down the henchmen. They are WAY to smart.

People used to complain that the hench were too dumb ;) personally I find they still have their dumb moments, i.e. calling a monk enemy about 10 times and Talon Silverwing steadfastly ignoring me to hit on some rangers. Or Mhenlo using Rebirth in battle. Generally I use hench and heroes for things like questing, easy skill caps etc. Harder stuff I go with guildies/friends, since it's far easier having a decent human monk with you and also doing things with guildies is fun.

I think the hench/hero and monster AI is fine atm. Your hench and heroes still have the dumb moments, but they are mostly way more useful than they used to be (and let's face it, what's the point of having them in the game if they're rubbish), and the monsters now run away when they're getting their backsides kicked.

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01/15/07 12:41

Skittle Cody

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

I agree with you.
the only MMO in GW is the outposts. thats it period.

Approving guides since November 2007.

01/15/07 12:41

cswella

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

QUOTE

You see the main problem isn't the heroes, the biggest problem is people... Most towns and outposts in Tyria and Cantha look like ghost towns, with no other players... I don't think this game can support a fourth expansion with totally new land anymore, then it definately would be 1 man against it all...

Part of that could be because of what Belshazarrswrath is saying. People are taking full hench/hero teams and whizzing through the game.

Remember Thunderhead Keep? It seemed that place was full 24 hours a day, because people had to wait for enough of the right people to complete it. Now with Heroes/Henchies, there is hardly any bottleneck because heroes can help you through em.

I agree with Belshazarrswrath, I think they need to do something to tone down the usage of heroes/henchies. This game is getting too spread out as it is with 3 campaigns, now with heroes, it's even worse.

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01/15/07 12:41

Belshazaarswrath

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

QUOTE

01/15/07 12:43

IceWarrior98

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

After reading more of your posts I understand more of what you guys mean and I do think that something should be fixed. However I don't think it should be the Hero/Henchies, instead I think it should be the enemies. If the enemies become harder it would make more people want to party up with other people because they are able to co-ordinate better with each other instead of controlling the order flags.

I just wish that something happens that would encourage the use of parties more and more like it did several months ago. I couldn't go into an outpost without being invited to a party but now even asking to join/create one will get me nowhere.

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01/15/07 12:45

IceWarrior98

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

No offence but do you know how to use henchmen? If you use them incorrectly yes they will not do well. But if you get a balanced group with them anything is cake. Also you die in this game. Alot. You can beata mission with everyone with 60 dp if you want. Ive done it plenty of times.[/QUOTE]

To be honest I don't use them at all I just them run around unless my healer gets to close then I tell her to back off. But still, now I understand more of what you mean.

W/Mo - Darius Anushe Lv20 Prophecies
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01/15/07 12:48

Belshazaarswrath

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

Im glad im not alone here. I mean 7 months ago if you told me guild wars would bbe like this I would laugh my ass off. Then people make fun of me when I say nightfall has flaws. People don't seem to ahve noticed that this gmae has utterly transformed fro mwhat it was just 7 months ago. Seriiouly they shoudl really fix this or they will be losing players by the day.

01/15/07 12:49

oxocube

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Joined: 01/17/2006
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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

QUOTE

I think they need to do something to tone down the usage of heroes/henchies.

Near the start of the Kourna part of Nightfall, Koss gets kidnapped and he is greyed out from the hero selection until you save him.

Who's says Anet won't do something similar for parts of the next expansion and disable the option for all heroes?

01/15/07 12:51

IceWarrior98

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

QUOTE

Thats still not enough though, the only trouble i'm having in nightfall is getting my Heros the skills they need to complete a mission but when I get that skill they rock. Making a hero greyed out doesn't prevent you from making the others godlike, just means you can't have your lovely tank no more.

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01/15/07 12:55

mwpeck

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

I can understand your points and where your coming from. But I have to say I dont think it should be changed.

This is my own opinion, but 9/10 times, I find hero/hench better than PuG's. I have failed hard missions TOO many times with PuG's, and passed them first/second try with my hero's/hench, that if there were missions that you couldnt hero/hench, I would quit GW.

Put it this way, I did THK with 3 PuG's and failed every time. After much frustration I finally tried it when hench(this was before hero's), and wouldnt ya know it, I made it my first time. I probably woulda quit back before factions was out if the hench were worse than PuG's.


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01/15/07 13:06

NecroRebel

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

I'm on the fence here. Yes, the PvE campaign is too easy now, but then again my own skill level has increased so much that even if they increased the difficulty I wouldn't have a problem. I recently henched (not hero/hench, but pure-hench) Thunderhead Keep with my Ranger, who has no Factions or Nightfall skills or equipment, and had no deaths during the entire mission. I had absolutely nothing that I couldn't get a year ago except my own experience.

What I'm saying here is that while things may appear to be getting easier, you can't put it all down to the heroes and henchmen being stronger because you're a much better player yourself. I've had many cases where one or two true masters at the game have pulled a group through a difficult place basically singlehandedly; heroes and henchmen are relatively weak "players," but your own skills make up for it.

On the other hand, most places are like ghost towns. I basically only go back to Tyria for farming anymore, and I've not even touched Cantha in months. The number of people in those areas is too low to find full groups most of the time unless one spends hours doing it, and it is right to say that that problem will only expand as more areas are unlocked unless serious effort is put into recruiting new players.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you're dissatisfied with the PvE aspect of the game, you should probably stop playing it. I myself have been going onto PvP more and more; it's more fun and satisfying, especially since I never know what challenges I'll be up against (though I can usually analyze enemies' builds before they engage me in battle, there's still occasionally builds that appear that throw me for a loop). If you don't like PvP either, though... Well, I guess that eliminates playing the game altogether.

01/15/07 13:12

rogh daxh

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

u know wut i think of all this.

THERE ARE WAY TO MUCH NOOBS AROUND.(no offense) but when i do things with a real prty there is ALWAYS (well u get my point) some1 to do something realy stupid and mess the whole thing up. the only ones i can depend on are my guild m8tes. and some others in my friendlist.

i tried many things with a real prty first but when i die for the 100th time im getting sick of it and say: 'hey lets grab hench and get over with it'. as i always say ingame, 'heros/hench own teh newb' and they realy do. when in the gate of madness mission, i saw lots of people saying: 'offer 10k for the first to get me trough this mission', i find this patathic. i tried it first with a real prty but as soon as we got the first rusher we die. then i grabed hench and i got the mission in 1 try, yes ive beaten shire on my first try WITH HENCH!

now i wuld love to see the game return to the state it was in back in the days of prophecies but i dont know if thats gonna be ez. they just upgraded the hench and enemy AI and i dont think they are gonna downtune it any time soon.

maybe a better idea is to make some sort of additional build making tutorial or something i dont know, im not a designer.

so i think the problem dos not lay with the hench but whit poorly informed people that dont realy know how to play propperly.

once again, i dont want to offend any1 in any way, i hope yall understand me. :P

01/15/07 13:15

AnvilChorus

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

I'll use PuGs again when I can depend on people to be smart about what they are doing.

I enjoy playing with others, but i dont enjoy waiting around for a party to form, or joining a mission only to fail time and time again because people just aren't getting it.

As for ghost towns in Tyria and Cantha, I rarely see that. last night, there were 3 districts in one of the outposts in starter Island in Factions.

If you normally use Heroes/Henchmen and you find it too easy, try using less of them. You get more drops, and it maintains difficulty.

Hi.

01/15/07 13:15

Grifter0408

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

Im not much of a guru on GW but I have enough understanding so far to chime in. I like the aspect of henchmen (dont have heroes) and I use them...and use them everywhere. I love the environment of MMOs but hate LFG stuff. Scares me to think I can do a mission solo/henchmen in 10 minutes but spend that plus 30 more looking for group, then then another 10+ completing (depending on competency of the group). In the MMOs I have played I have solo'd mass majority of the game (excluding dungeons and a few misc missions). I do like to team but only when I know my teammates.

The AI of henchmen seems fairly dumb to me. I cant even count how many times my healer or ranged henchmen have aggro'd a 2nd group because they run around like a chicken with their head's cut off. Or they die to only be rezzed again in mid-battle then die again.

But I will agree that the inclusion of henchmen makes the game feel at times like it could be considered MMO-IYL (If You Like). Its like Im playing something on a console or such. I have reached level 13 and so far used henchmen in every aspect. Maybe if your looking for ideas that could help cull the use of them is limit their availability. For instance only allow use of henchmen in Quest but not the Missions. Or even only allow X amount in group. Say for instance in a 5 man group (you included) only 2 or 3 slots can be given to henchmen.

I dont know, I like them but then again I try to avoid teaming because of too many bad teams and long search times for people.

01/15/07 13:16

Mordakaida

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

I agree on some of your points but there are people like me who hate to party with other people unless I have to. Why? Because I'm tired of rage quitters, flamers or just idlers. I can take my time. I can sit in a area for 5 mins choosing how I want to fight this group or run through the entire zone without someone saying.. OMG let's just go this way and everyone dies.

Gw was never a mmorpg to start with but there are things I would like to see.

You have a full party of people and one quits. You can send a Invite to a person on your friends list or guild to join you in that zone. They would have to run to catch up to where you are at but would be helpful. :)

I was trying to complete a mission for 2 hours because the players there either did not listen or did listen but could not complete it. So taking my trusty heros/henchmen I got masters easily.

01/15/07 13:19

Belshazaarswrath

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

Well if they weakened the henchmen and weakened the heroe's all the people who were just breezing through the game would have to go with people. But the incredible number of people hench/heroing would be in need of a group. So there would be a huge number of expirienced palyers put back in the game. With such a surplus good teams would exist again. If you suck well these teams need good people. So you get better or you get left behind. Thats the way I thin kabout it at least. I mean thin kabout the poor little newb guys who have no idea how to play and are looking for groups with a bunch of useless people jsut like them. If they couldget an expirineced guy like myself or pretty much all of us then maybe they could advance. Then the whole gmae would improve as a whole.

01/15/07 13:24

gyerekember

Posts: 12
Joined: 12/12/2005
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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

My two cents:
While getting a group from an alliance having 150+ members takes about an hour, I do like hte way heroes can fill up a group. And actually, my experience with PUGS is that 99.9% of the time there's 2-3 people in who doesn't care about the others; 80% of the time there's a passenger who goes afk after 5 mins and won't return until everyone finishes everything for them; 90% of the time there's someone who leaves the party if something doesn't go 120% like they want to.

I don't mind heroes and henchies. It's the players who should get a new AI imho... (well, most of the players...)

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01/15/07 13:33

DZA

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

QUOTE

Oh and please don't say "why don't you jutt quit?" beacuse if you do you will make me incredibly angry and I will consider this trolling.

Ok Well just QUIT ! Stop crying and just give up playing Guild Wars if you feel that bad about it. Not like this is the only Rpg Or any other game for you to play.

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01/15/07 13:33

gyerekember

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

[QUOTE]Besides, GW never was a true MMORPG. True MMORPGs are games like WoW or Silkroad. Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game..Theres nothing really that massive about it unless you have more than one Chapter and the Multiplayer only goes as high as 8 total (May be more in a place ive never been yet I dunno.)/QUOTE]
12 in elite missions. But actually MMORPG says you can interact with tons of other people (and you can, in outposts and through whispers); also you can form parties with them (is the largest party size in WoW around 100.000? Think about instances especially, since in GW you actually go to instances...) But this was already discussed in many other topics.

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01/15/07 13:41

hockeyman12599

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

I have no problem with heros and henchies. I just tried 3 times to do unwaking waters with a PUG and they were all idiots. So I go on to try it with heros and hench and I win the first try. I hate being stuck with idiot players, I don't mind being alone with my heros and hench. If you want some human interaction work with your guild, thats what they are there for.

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01/15/07 13:42

AnvilChorus

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

QUOTE

I agree on some of your points but there are people like me who hate to party with other people unless I have to. Why? Because I'm tired of rage quitters, flamers or just idlers. I can take my time.

Or Racists...or homophobes....or people who didnt bother to tell the group they were leaving for dinner halfway through the mission...or people who are leaving to do AB because their guild called, or people who havent gotten a clue on how aggro works, or people who are going to berate monks, or people who sit and emote their deer thing instead of fighting....

01/15/07 13:53

lion7

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RE: Make gw an mmorpg again

QUOTE

yeah I so agree with you about wanting just the endgame stuff and caping the elites for pvp or getting the armor to look good in pvp. They really need to make something for the people that just use there pve characters for pvp only instead of going through the campaigns like 50 times.
I personally think that this Is not a MMORPG anymore because there is not community of people at all and no one talks about anything they just want to get the missions done. I actually just use the henchies and heros because I don't get alot of time to play GW and I usually lag really bad so I don't like to piss other people off thats y i dont get in groups.

If they keep on making new continents we will be so screwed because people are getting stretched thin. There is barely anyone in Factions. There are however alot of people in Prophecies which is nice but they need to make GW more of a community than focusing on the individual. Because as soon as I get all of the elite skills in Nightfall and the bad ass armor then I'm going GvG all the way.
If they go as far as 3 more campaigns with new continents they better be super awesome so they will attract new people because it getting stretched thin. I mean I would love for new continents and profs but they need to make it where the people that just get the elites and armor for their pve characters that do pvp easier.(sry if this does not make any sense iv written this in like an hour running back and forth doing stuff.)

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01/15/07 14:00

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