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quicks2234

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It's so boring

As I see it from beta testing the game and the last month I played of it it's has to many bugs most people say that it need another 6 to 8 months of development. and that it's already lost half of it's user base. It has gotten really bad reviews.

The way I see it with the intense hardware requirements it needs to really run it with a good fps and the bug and time it will take fix them all. This game will be the next AC 2 it looks great like Ac 2 did but it died cause it was released in beta form.

Now I'm 50 already and there nothing left to do cause most people are not even close to my level. and I have a alt that 35 already. I doubt I will stay another month unless something big changes.

It wasn't hard to level at all so to the people who complain it's hard you just lack the skills or this your first real mmo. Wow doesn't count as a real mmo since it was built to be easy.

02/27/07 08:32

Phedre_D

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RE: It's so boring

Gratz on getting bored with it within a month. I hope for you you will enjoy the game you are going to play next a little longer. Personally I hardly notice any bugs, and I love the game. I am sure I will enjoy it for many months to come. I guess we are all different.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

***FEELS KINDA NAKED WITHOUT A SIGGIE***

02/27/07 08:42

blackphoenix

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RE: It's so boring

I would have to disagree with you. Well, not on the bugs part, but I have yet to run into any bug that was so major I would entertain the thought of quitting. Every release MMO has issues. Some more than others, but none in this game that are game killing as far as I'm concerned.

There is a lot more to games than just reaching the max level. How's your crafting and diplomacy coming? If you aren't max level in those too, then you've missed 2/3 of the game. Do you own a home? A ship? There is so much of the game yet to do rather than just rush to the max level. What about the lore? Did you read the quests? Do you understand how the whole story fits together and how everything's related? If you're into hitting the max level as quick as you can, I'd suggest Lineage 2. You can get to 75 (or 76 or whatever the cap is these days) then you can start all over on your secondary class. It should keep you busy for a couple months at least.

It's been a month and the highest I've gotten is level 16. Not because I lack skill (mostly becuase I have a family and a job, but I like it that way) but because I want to take as much of the game in as I can. Enjoy ever aspect of it ranther than just rush rush rush to the level cap.

I would suggest playing it again, only slower, and try to enjoy all the great stuff to see and do. Then see if you still think it's boring.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

02/27/07 08:48

lani

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RE: It\'s so boring

There is a certain type of player hat will find it hard to enjoy any MMO for any length of time, simply because they don't really play the game.

Here's what they do:

- Pick the class most suited to solo-play and power-levelling.
- Grind their way to the top level as fast as possible, never stopping to watch the scenery, read some background or any of that Content the designers put in there to keep us occupied for months.
- At highest level, quickly run through End-Game Content once.

Then they start doing what they really enjoy and get their kicks from:

Whine and bitch that the game sucks because they "beat it" in stead of playing it.
I guess there's a certain "I got there first/second/third" bragging rights fun to it. But otherwise, it seems to me this type of player's sole pleasure comes from complaining that if they don't play, but beat a game, it's no fun and this is somehow the fault of the people who make the games to play. I guess this comes from playing Nintendo :-P

Go pick another class, one you haven't "beaten" the game with and then Play the game. have fun with it :-)

As to the bugs, I haven't seen a single MMO launch yet without tons of bugs and the game really should've had six to eight months of development, minimum. The same goes for every single software application known to man. So, I'm not worried about that. The game is enjoyable and we see that it's being worked on.

MMORPG (Roleplaying): Mostly Men Online Role-Playing Girls
MMORPG (Acheivement): Miserable Malcontents Online Rehashing Past Glories
MMORPG (PvP): Macho Men Obviously Really Prefer Griefing
MMORPG (itemization): Misers May Obfuscate Recently Purchased Gold
MMORPG (Social): Virtual Worlds with Virtual Wealth and achievements, but with Real People with Real Feelings.

02/27/07 09:00

quicks2234

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RE: It's so boring

I have house and Maxed out my crafting, wasn't really into the diplomacy side of it as much so it's not maxed. I have played l2 already have a 75/75 on it. And it's not I don't try to enjoy games I have just been playing mmos since NWN was on AOL and it was first mmo around then came dso then uo and so on. I have become a expert at most games, I'll stick to playing Warhammer since I work for Mythic.

And maybe in a month or two I will try VG again. but right now there are no raids really and not a lot else to do, I'm not a person who likes to just sit & craft items all day long in games. And I wasn't complaining I was just stating a fact from my experience with the game since closed beta.

Sure i can keep making alts but what good will that do when there only 4 classes i like all 4 can be soloed pretty fast.

02/27/07 09:14

blackphoenix

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RE: It's so boring

Out of curiosity I was going to look at your stats over on the vgplayers site because I wanted to see what kind of crits a level 50 gets, but I couldn't find a character named Malice that was lvl 50, or even one with an alt that was lvl 50. I guess you've got two accounts or something?

02/27/07 10:52

Phedre_D

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RE: It's so boring

QUOTE

You are as hopeless as me BP! I did the same thing, and wondered the same thing.

***FEELS KINDA NAKED WITHOUT A SIGGIE***

02/27/07 10:55

MikesterBrau

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RE: It's so boring

I guess ones perception of boring is relative to ones expectations of the experience but I find the game anything but boring. I know from looking at the site, very few folks have housing or ships at this point in the game and while some have adventure level capped I do no think anyone has hit the cap for crafting or diplomacy yet so for those that enjoy the fully immersive offerings of this game hitting a wall in the realm enjoyment should be a long ways off. I hope that since an account was set up and an indication of preference for the offerings from mythic we will see some insights and commentary on the Warhammer section of GameAmp.

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02/27/07 16:24

quicks2234

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RE: It's so boring

I have 2 accounts and Malice is not my toons name, When filling crap out on here I realized that area in this site was for what your toons names and not for what I thought it was for. I never updated it but might later on. Now back to Other games I play.

As for warhammer I can't discuss anything that hasn't already been revealed to the public as far the game goes.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

02/28/07 05:03

lani

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RE: It\\\\\\\'s so boring

Ok, now I'm seriously starting to doubt your integrity.

- First, apparently you as a Mythic employee participated in Sigil's closed Beta, against their policy and the agreement you would have had to enter. That's very odd and not very kosher. Certainly not something Mythic would like their employee's to mention on community sites. For the record, which phases of Closed Beta did you participate in?

- Second, you seem to not follow Mythic's policy on the use of the Warhammer Online name, the policy not to step forward as Mythic employees outside the official PR bubble or theyr general policies of professional behavior while posting under the Mythic name. Maybe check with your boss about those NDA papers and other stuff they made you sign and what they really entail.

- Third, your statements regarding Asheron's Call 2's demise are clearly not those of a professional in the business, but the overly simplistic statements of a player. One can write books about why what happened happened. in fact, if I'm not mistaken one is being written. The causes for what happened are myriad. The technology wasn't really one of them.

- Fourth, as a professional who's livelihood depends on MMO's are you really going to say NWN is a MMO? Come on!
ORPG, maybe. But MMO?

Fifth, I've become convinced your "When filling crap out on here.." is the most honest, accurate statement you made so far. I don't think you've stopped doing this since you signed on your account. Feel free to prove me wrong, but maybe you should do that over at the warhammer.gameamp.com site instead.

02/28/07 06:04

One Swordsman

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RE: It's so boring

And the moral of the story children. Don't try to outsmart Lani at his game.

It wont work.

^_^

I have a flannel to wash my face
if it gets mucky i feel disgraced.
Do you like horlicks, do you like chips.
I'v got 100 pairs of lips
- Gotta love the Warlock forums xD

02/28/07 11:21

Weahawk

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RE: It's so boring

I am with you Iani, I know I’m late on this post, but lets face it, after playing the game in beta and now on a pay as you go basis we all no there were toon wipes and there is no way by the date of this post he could have had a house or maxed anything. As for Neverwinter Nights it was released in North America on June 18, 2002 and is not an MMO, Ultima Online was released on September 25, 1997 and is an MMO so he may have started on NWN but UO was out clearly 5 years prior to NWN, the dudes bogus and most likely a virgin. I don’t even bother paying attention to this sort of “touch me not” player without any verification. Trust me I am building a house, granted it’s the largest in the game, and we are clearly two months into it and there isn’t a crafter on the server that can make the materials needed to build it. And I only have half of the raw materials needed. Integrity? Credibility? I wouldn’t have been as nice just call it like it is an inflated lie… PISHA!!!!

03/20/07 10:38

quicks2234

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RE: It's so boring

First off Neverwinter Nights was a MMO before it was ever a pc game you can even ask bioware.

**** edited out by Phedre_D ****

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights_(AOL_game)

**** edited out by Phedre_D ****

Neverwinter Nights was the first Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMORPG) to display graphics, and ran from 1991 to 1997 on AOL (then called Quantum Computer Services). The genre had previously been pioneered by the all-text Islands of Kesmai series created by Kelton Flinn at Kesmai.

In addition to being the first graphics-based MMORPG, the game also marked the first appearance of online Clans and Player versus player (pvp) combat in multiplayer RPGs.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

03/21/07 12:44

Phedre_D

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RE: It's so boring

I don't really care who is right or wrong. But I do care about these forums, and I don't want to see any flaming. If you have to resort to making insults you are not welcome here quicks2234.

***FEELS KINDA NAKED WITHOUT A SIGGIE***

03/21/07 13:06

quicks2234

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RE: It's so boring

He insulted me first so I think you should voice you opinions on all involved. Not just focus on me since I have proven my statements to be fact. But I already know you will see it differently cause you are one sided.

03/21/07 13:10

Weahawk

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RE: It's so boring

I apologize if I offended, it was not my intention, more for pompus goating into the truth, I for one stand humbly corrected in the lack of consideration paid to NWN. But truth in hand, the knowledge of an early MMO does not lay proof at the feet of the skeptics on any of the claims made in earlier emails, or any questions that you chose not to answer. If I were you I would be thinking “Humph, I don’t have to prove anything to these plebeians” But if you want to clear up the mystery link us to your toons or post some how to’s on the forums to help us all burn through a toon for test or PVP, it would be awesome information to have…

03/21/07 13:31

Video13

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RE: It's so boring

I know, I'm knew here and all that. But, someone has to play Devil's Advocate here in a neutral manner completely.

Now, it's already been mostly cleared up ont he NWN thing, but...as noted NWN was a game based in part on traditions started in the original Neverwinter Nights online game, the first graphical MMORPG, which ran from 1991 to 1997 on AOL.

The version you were refering to was the "newer" version, and more widely recognized version of NWN.

Infogrames released that Neverwinter Nights for Windows on June 18, 2002. BioWare released the freely downloadable Linux Client in June 2003. MacSoft released a Mac OS X port in August 2003.

Now, more to the point though on when lani stated NWN wasn't an MMORPG and at best could be classified as an ORPG.

That's actually incorrect, and I have to agree with quick2234 on that.

The 2002 NWN's game lani refered to ran as modules in variety of separate genres and themes. These actually did, and still do, include persistent worlds (which are similar to MUDs), combat arenas (player versus player modules), and simple social gatherings similar to a chat room. The campaign included with the game can be played with friends, for example, or a team of builders can build a virtual world similar in scope and size to commercial MMORPGs. BioWare insists that these persistent worlds be free of charge, primarily for reasons of copyright law.

There are several persistent worlds still actively run with updates and improvements. Some examples include Avlis and Layonara. Servers can also be linked together, allowing the creation of large multi-server worlds. Two early examples include "A Land Far Away" and "Confederation of Planes and Planets."

NWN is, in fact an MMORPG, regardless of perceptions though. It can, in fact, be played on "large scale" though not many ever took it to this level (myself and five friends did create an online "world", each was responsible for a "continent" which we created ourselves, populated and ran as folks were on it. Along with pre-built dungeons explorers could find and dive into. We'd then would go back in every few days and repopulate the dungeons. All in all though, it ended up having about 35 active players on it...but it took a bit much for us to keep it going constantly so we ended up stopping it).

Now, that all being said, and that last bit mostly irrelevant...Historically speaking quick2234 is also inaccurate (in his initial statement's of first came NWN, then DSO, then UO...).

The first MMORPG's were, in fact, around back in the 1970's. These were MUD's, and by the same token as AOL's NWN, they are the first MMORPG's. Now, quick2234 was accurate under the basis of it being the first "graphical" as he noted. However, he's inaccurate in the evolution of both the Clans, and the PvP. However, it's not always widely known. There were "groups" of people who worked together tightly as a group in some of the mid-to-late 80's MUD's, and by the definition these are Clan's. Only a few claimed alliances though, so the "term" clan/guild wasn't around at that time. But the loose association of people in a group that worked towards common goals was (which is the definition of a clan after all). The PvP aspect, was also around, but it wasn't in all MUD's, and wasn't highly liked in the western world (American). Japan, and a few American MUD's, saw much more competitive player-vs-player actions. In fact, one might say that was when the first griefer's came about.

But just for the record's, after the MUD's, 1984 had the second MMORPG release of a Rogue(First Person shooter game)like multi-user game, called "Islands of Kesmai." This is what quick2234 was refering to, but MUD's were actually first and while Islands of Kesmai was once text based, it wasn't the only MUD (or the first). The first truly graphical multi-user title was Neverwinter Nights as noted previously, which was delivered through America Online and was personally championed by AOL President Steve Case.

Now, depending upon the definition of the term MMORPG (Massively-Multiplayer being a relative term here), we could go back to the start of the internet when Meridian 59 became the first 3-D Graphical "internet-online" game. Interestingly though, while most modern player's of MMORPG's credit Merdian 59 to being the "cause" for everyone getting into the MMORPG genre, "The Realm" was actually the one that gave a wider awareness to MMORPG's, not Meridian 59. Though, UO is the one that brought the majority of the mdoern gamer to know about them.

All that being beside the point...after all, what I say doesn't matter much. BUT, I have to agree with the other parts of lani's statements. It would be unprofessional for an actual Mythic employee to come to a forums, declare themselves as a an actual member of the Mythic team.

As lani noted, that would violate several business codes of conduct, as well as show poor PR mannerisms would would bode poorly for the company as a whole. A behavior most companies (regardless of their products) frown upon.

Now, I do find it odd that quick2234 failed to mention something in his overly simplistic statement of "NWN was the first mmo, then dso, then UO, and so on" (simplisic not being an insult here so don't take offense. But merely refering to the brief nature of the history of MMORPG's). Since as a Mythic employee he should know that in 1984 Mythic launched Aradath, a commercial online RPG that they had the audacity to charge $40 USD per month for. Though, it wouldn't be classified much as an MMORPG I don't think.

The bottom line is, would a Mythic employee really volunteer the information that they are a member of a company while belittling another game? One could easily bring up the DAoC game and it's many..MANY...flaws upon release, and the fact it was often stated to still be in the "beta" stage upon it's release. It had many bug's as well, and still does really. Though I do enjoy it from time to time now. The game itself was good, but was hardly better than Vangaurd upon release. It's also lost most of it's following and has a skeleton life.

All in all, it would be incredibly poor manner's for an employee of any company to come out stating they are from that company, and then talk about the short-comings of another game.

I personall do agree, though, that Vanguard has it's flaws..and there are many of them. But, as lani noted, and I'd agree. quick2234's idea of a game is one that he/she barrels through the game, missing out on the content, missing out on the experience, and all in all, missing out on the game itself. Then, upon reaching the final levels looks back and says "well...now what..." and then waits for there to be more to do, or more people their level, to actually achieve "more." Interestingly, the game programmers I know rarely "dive through" levels that fast, because...as programmers themselves, they take the time to APPRECAITE the game, to appreciate the code (even the poor code at times), and to appreciate the pains they themselves are familiar with having built games from the ground up themselves. I would think that a Mythic employee could appreciate that. Even if they're not a programmer, or a developer. As we all know, you could be a janitor at the company during the initial releases and still get to play in the "Employee only" or "Friends and Family" beta releases of a game the company is releasing. Everquest 2 was most entertaining during those releases, as was City of Heroes and Villains (At seperate times of course). But then, as I am living proof, you don't alway shave to be an employee to get into those releases either.

The point being of all this (rather lengthy) statement is:

1: Don't discount a game as an MMORPG merely because you have a popular view of the game (many people wouldn't even know about the NWN initial AOL release, MUD's, or the like anymore).
2: Don't brag that yer a member of a company when pointing out flaws in another game. It's poor business, and a violation of business ethics.
3: Each person plays games differently. Some speed through levels, some like to RP, some just love to log onto games where they can chat with people who they've never met, but talk to daily about everything. And some, only get on to grief.
4: If you don't have anything nice to say about a game...why take the time to comlpain about it on a forum?
5: Video has far to much time on his hands to write long responses that no one will ever read fully, and he hasn't put much humor into this one since it's been a long night at work.

It's a game, and a forum in this case, but have fun with it. And remember....Knowing..is HALF the battle. The other half involves a reindeer, three shots of vodka and a snow plow.

03/22/07 05:34

Phedre_D

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RE: It's so boring

Hello Video13! Welcome to our little corner of the big wide world. Believe it or not, but I read through your whole post. Thanks for your ramblings. It was a very interesting read, even if it was a bit low on reindeer. I fully agree with you on the point if you have nothing nice to say, why bother saying anything at all. And having said that, I hope to see you say a lot more in the future.

***FEELS KINDA NAKED WITHOUT A SIGGIE***

03/22/07 06:18

lani

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RE: It\'s so boring

Nice read Video13!
Your facts are nicely collaborated by the Warcry articles on the past present and future of MMORPGs.

I still would not call either the Quantum Link, or the more recent NWN a MMORPG.
There are two points that have come to define the term Massively Multiplayer. Number of concurrent users per server / world and the presence of a persistent world.
Even though the exact number of concurrent users that will make a game qualify as a MMOG isn't set in stone or any other medium for that matter, it's commonly held to be more than 250, the maximum of MUD's. The Quantum Link NWN could deal with 50 concurrent users. Hence the statement it's at best an ORPG.
Where NWN was 'Massive' and important to the MMOG branch was in making money. It brought in Millions and truly brought home the possibilities of on-line gaming as a revenue source. Hell, if people will pay $6 per hour to play a D&D game with complete strangers.... I wonder if the Guild "No monthly Fee!" Wars crowd knows that? :-)

The second, Bioware's NWN isn't really an MMORPG either. It's something unique and a bit of a hybrid. It might be possible to make an MMORPG out of it. But as it was the engine and server aren't set up for that kind of scale. The freedom to modify prevents that.

Anyway, we're walking a dangerous path here. Vanguard has attracted both UO and EQI fan(atics) who would turn this discussion into one about complete persistence vs partially instanced and other esoteric discussions about "immersion" e.t.c :-)

03/22/07 07:11

Video13

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RE: It's so boring

Actually lani, as I pointed out...the newer NWN does have two persistant server's out there with worlds being run on them.

The problem is, as you stated, the term "massive" is a relative term and there's no true "set" minimal number of players.

but by the same token, you have to keep in scale that "massive multiplayer" can mean a large group of people. While (specially when comparing to EQ, Vanguard or WoW with it's 6 million+ accounts, one has to take into account that for a game like NWN to have 50 people on one server (which is do-able), that's still pretty good for a world that isn't static. When you look at Vanguard and EQ or Wow, you have to take into account that when you do a diplomatic quest "you" know you've brought the warring factions to a halt. They're happy and you know it cause ya gave them each compromises they agreed to. However, when the next person comes along, how odd..they're still at war!

In games like NWN (the newer) it's easy to think it's not an MMORPG, but the reality is there's not "true" RP in any of it either. Player's can interact with each other. But you can walk up to the head of any faction and tell them you will kill them!! Long as you don't attack em, not a single NPC cares cause they haven't a clue what yer saying.

So by your arguement, since you believe that it's not a "massive-multiplayer" merely because it lacks the size of lingeage II, UO, EQ, WoW, Vanguard, CoH, CoV, DAoC, etc.. it's not massive..it shouldn' tbe an RP either...nor should Vanguard.

So should we call Vanguard an MMOG instead? It's all relative really. You may not see NWN as an MMORPG, but it is. Just as much as Vanguard is an MMORPG.

But we're debating semantics here. As I noted, you may not view it as such, but it is still classified as an MMORPG regardless of your, or my own, opinion.

03/23/07 15:00

lani

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RE: It\'s so boring

Ah, good food for thought and discussion Video13 :-)

Like I said, there's no set definition of the minimal amount of concurrent players to make it Massively Multiplayer.
We do have however, such a amount for Multi-user/player from the MUD era. Muds commonly held 250 concurrent users. Now, the term Massively does imply that this amount is somehow more, more massive. Yes, that's the term :-) Seriously it implies, even though it's a marketing term and not a technology term like MUD was, at the least a times x factor. Where I would argue factor x to be at least 4 and probably around 8 and rapidly growing. Certainly not a divide by factor, which is what would be needed to make the Quantum Link NWN, sorry but shouldn't the P&P version be the Original, the title of MMORPG.

Of course, you can also apply 'Massively' in MMO to apply to sales figures or monthly subscriptions. Then the field becomes even more murky.
The problem is, MMORPG is a term that's not been defined and moreover, there's no recognized authotity to define it. And no, Wikipedia is not recognized to have that authority. Maybe when school-kids can't "correct' their own teachers' contributions it will have some day. Not this decade though. The lack of such a definition or moral authority leaves us imo with the option of considering how the makers of the games in question consider their product. Sorry, but I'm more inclined to go with the definition used by those in the business themselves than that of wikimania fan-boys. it is afterall a business term, though sadly there is no industry standard.
Did Quantum Link consider their game an MMORPG? Nope, the term wasn't coined yet by (probably) Electronic Arts Marketing Department. Was NWN considered an MMORPG by Bioware or WoTC? Not really, Bioware was aiming at the concept of getitng as close as possible to the Pen and Paper DM, tea and cookies Roleplaying Game. Something that's much to Intimate to call Massively.

And here we get to what is probably my real and more personal reluctance to call the latest NWN (doing my best to ignore the fact I paid for NWN:2 here) an MMORPG. Because it did a very good job of recreating that nostalgic (for me) feeling of the True RPG. I do not know exactly how many concurrent users the two persistent world servers of NWN can run, if that's around 1000 concurrent players or more, without significant data loss e.t.c. then it's technically, potentially and MMORPG. Though given it wasn't designed with that many concurrent users in mind, I doubt it.

You do broach an interesting point on the 'RP' bit. Although I thought the argument over the fact that no CRPG was ever really RPG was settled around the time the CRPG's came out, about 20 years ago? NWN, WOW, EQ-I/II, Vanguard e.t.c are all CRPG, meaning Computer Role Playing Games. CRPGs were already a 'dilution' of RPG to most players and designers and commonly refers to the 'development' of a character statistics wise over time/experience rather than to any actual playing of a role, or for that matter the same flexibility as a GM/DM/Storyteller controlled world has. This is a settled argument buried for the same time it takes a human person to grow from infancy to adult independence. Please let it remain buried.

Still, I've noticed over the course of 2006 that a lot of people in the industry have started to use the term MMOG in favor of MMORPG or even just MMO for similar reasons. Is Auto Assault an RPG? Not really I think, but it just might fit the CRPG definition.
The Massive Online Entertainment Business MOEB (Yay! My first Acronym) is branching out in various different ways. Is Habbo Hotel an MMO(RP)G? In some ways it is, given the amount of near-geriatric males "roleplaying" teen girls, but not really. It is MMO though as it brings in massive bugs and has huge numbers of members.

P.s. I'm still going to stay away from instance vs persistent, static vs evolving e.t.c. Too me that's to detailistic and which of those has one's personal preference or is "better" doesn't really say anything about whether it was an MMORPG. If quality were a factor, 80% of the so called 1st, 2nd and third generation MMORPGs would probably fall by the wayside as well as half the pioneers and precursors.

03/24/07 06:07

Video13

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RE: It's so boring

Now, interestingly lani, you stated:

QUOTE

Was NWN considered an MMORPG by Bioware or WoTC? Not really, Bioware was aiming at the concept of getitng as close as possible to the Pen and Paper DM, tea and cookies Roleplaying Game. Something that's much to Intimate to call Massively.

as well as:

QUOTE

Sorry, but I'm more inclined to go with the definition used by those in the business themselves than that of wikimania fan-boys. it is afterall a business term, though sadly there is no industry standard.

Very well, so we'll go with their own definition. You are mistaken though. Bio-ware did, in fact, consider NWN (the newer one) an MMO. In fact, they state:

QUOTE

We are taking advantage of the great party-based adventuring experiences that are made possible by massively multiplayer games and placing that in the context of a gripping and immersive story line in which the players can be full and important participants. We are blending the best of single-player and massively multiplayer games, as well as the classic experience of pen-and-paper role-playing, to create the best of all possible worlds.

This isn't from Wiki-pedia. So I'm far from a Wiki-pedia fan-boy as you seem to think I am.

You've set the statement that you'll go by their own definition, after all, they are the one's in the business. They clearly state that they combine ALL aspect's into one. They give you the best of both the solo play, and the MMO play. Ergo...they do consider it an MMO. Their idea was to actually combine the typical MMO where there is really no "role" in the world that you fit (back to the RP aspect of the game) and giving you an "impact" upon the world you're in.

As I've stated before, you are welcome to your opinion, and that's just what it is. Just as mine is my opinion as well. But like it or not, even Bio-ware does condiser NWN an MMORPG, and I give them credit. They are, as you say, in the business and, as you said

QUOTE

"it is afterall a business term"

.

Since the business itself consider's it an MMORPG, then by your definition, it is.

We could argue this till we're as blue as the forum background here. =P But it's unlikely you'll change your stance, nor shall I. so let's agree to disagree.

03/26/07 01:12

lani

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 570
Joined: 09/08/2005
Credibility: 28 pts

RE: It's so boring

Let me start by apologizing.
It was not my intention to make you out as a wiki-fanboy and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by inadvertently doing so.

Not every statement in my post(s) was directed at you but also at the wider audience. I'm allergic to the "I read it on wikipedia so it must be true Q.E.D." arguments and was really taking a swipe at an earlier post by someone else :-)
So though it may look like I was offering you a shoe, it certainly does not fit.

Second, I suspect we'd better agree to disagree because the Bioware statement to me strengthens my own impression that it's something different, incorporating MMO elements but not "fully". A hybrid if you will.

Lastly let me thank you for an exemplary polite and well argued discussion. :-) I hope we'll see more from you either in your capacity as arguer of causes or writer of fiction ;-)

03/26/07 06:50

Video13

Posts: 0
Joined: 03/22/2007
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: It's so boring

oh, you've not hurt my feelings. Don't take it that way. I just realize that we'd argue this till, as I said, we are as blue as the forums.

I know for a fact Bio-ware classifies it as a MMO. Both from statements they've officially made, their own rulings in that statement I quoted, etc..

But, as noted, we could keep this going for as long as the forum wasn't locked. =P Which, ultimately, wouldn't be worth the while..specially as we got WAY side-tracked from the original post and have made it a completely knew debate. Something I'd never intended to do myself.

And, you'll see me about. =P

03/26/07 08:39

lani

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 570
Joined: 09/08/2005
Credibility: 28 pts

RE: It\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s so boring

Ehmmmm....
Ok, maybe this should be locked. not because we're flaming but because we keep picking at it like a scab :-)

The following does not invalidate your point that Bioware stated "NWN is an MMO", although your quoted bit does not unilaterally say that to my ears or eyes, but here's Bioware talking about recruiting for their future debut in the Massively Multiplayer Online space in a 2006 Press Release:

QUOTE

New Studio Recruiting for Massively Multiplayer Online RPG Project

; the new game will mark BioWare's debut in the Massively Multiplayer Online space. BioWare has recruited some of the top talent in MMO and RPG development, both to manage the development efforts at BioWare Austin and to collaborate with the experienced team at BioWare Edmonton, to develop a game that combines the best of BioWare's great past games with a compelling persistent online experience.

Of course Bioware would be hardly the first company ever to have made statements seemingly at odds with previous ones.
I would like to see Bioware do a 'real' MMO, though I suspect it would miss that personal and 'true' RPG feel they managed to put in all their Single Player games regardless of platform and in NWN as well.

Oh well, despite whether NWN is an MMO or not and despite NWN2 I'll still willingly, blindly buy any box that has the name Bioware on it :-)

03/26/07 09:00

Weahawk

Posts: 1
Joined: 03/12/2007
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: It\'s so boring

QUOTE

I'll still willingly, blindly buy any box that has the name Bioware on it :-)

QUOTE]

I will sell you this box for 30 bucks... :)

As for locking the forums, well that would be silly, but you guys could start a new one named "What is an MMORPG"
or "Origins and terms of an MMORPG"

Here is my 2 cents... 24 to 64 to even 100 players to me is not massive, regardless of what the company that made it states that it is... but even more frank, what difference does it really make. We play what we like and have fun... so let’s have some fun. I say Vanguard has its flaws and player’s perception of the game will depend on race class and server, not to mention the players style of play... every mmo is not for every player, which is a good thing. So play and state what you like and have fun but let’s stick to topic. I for one only find it boring when trying to find a group of people to play with; standing around waiting on a party to form, but that is what I have found to be the largest problem with any game where you group for quests...

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

03/26/07 10:36

quicks2234

Posts: 0
Joined: 02/27/2007
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: It's so boring

Your wrong on many accounts.

"Island of Kesmai was written in 1980 and 1981, the goal being to soak up every bit of performance in the the CS department's new VAX. We succeeded." - Kelton Flinn (http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/mudtimeline.shtml)

"The look and feel of Dungeons actually did not change much, same basic screen layout and ASCII graphics from the first HP-2000 version through to the Island, but the addition of a quasi-natural-language parser in place of cryptic single character commands was done in the Island, and back-fitted when we did the Dungeons port to CompuServe, so that Dungeons would serve as an intro for the Island. The Island also introduced copious textual descriptions of things, whereas the earlier games relied on the ASCII graphics and terse combat results messages." - Kelton Flinn [1]

"In November 1981, John saw an ad for CompuServe, namely a MegaWars ad ("if you had written this, you'd be making $30,000 a month in royalties!" I think the ad said. Bill was actually trolling for new games!) That kinda got our interest, so we sent a copy of The Island of Kesmai manual to Bill Louden and also to The Source. Even though the game already ran on the Prime computers that the Source used, they never responded intelligibly. Louden on the other hand was interested. We tried to bring the original UNIX version of the Island of Kesmai up on CompuServe's DEC 20's, and chewed up $100,000 of CPU time (at the then commercial rate) in 3 days. We got it working, but as Bill said, the lights dimmed in Columbus when it was running. So we headed back to Charlottesville to retrench. The first step was porting the old Z-80 code, that became Dungeons of Kesmai, which was cut back to single-player (probably the only time in history a multi-player game was made into a single player game!)" - Kelton Flinn [2]

Island of Kesmai went live on CompuServe on December 15, 1985, after a very long internal test. The price was actually $6 an hour for 300 baud, $12 for 1200 baud. Serious players paid the bucks." - Kelton Flinn [3]

Now about muds

In computer gaming, a MUD (Multi-User Dungeon, Domain or Dimension) is a multi-player computer game that combines elements of role-playing games, hack and slash style computer games and social chat rooms. Typically running on a bulletin board system or Internet server, the game is usually text driven, where players read descriptions of rooms, objects, events, other characters, and computer-controlled creatures or non-player characters (NPCs) in a virtual world. Players usually interact with each other and the surroundings by typing commands that resemble a natural language, usually English.

Traditional MUDs implement a fantasy world populated by elves, goblins, dwarves, halflings and other mythical or fantasy-based races with players being able to take on any number of classes, including warriors, mages, priests, thieves, druids, etc., in order to gain specific skills or powers. The object of the game is to slay monsters, explore a rich fantasy world, to complete quests, go on adventures, create a story by roleplaying, and/or advance the created character. Many MUDs were fashioned around the dice rolling rules of the Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) series of games.

MUDs often have a fantasy setting, while many others are set in a science fiction-based universe or themed on popular books, movies, animations, history, etc. Still others, especially those which are often referred to as MOOs, are used in distance education or to allow for virtual conferences. MUDs have also attracted the interest of academic scholars from many fields, including communications, sociology, law, and synthetic economies.

Most MUDs are run as hobbies and are free to players; some may accept donations or allow players to "purchase" in-game items. There are also many professionally developed MUDs which charge a monthly subscription fee.

Also the first muds where not made till the late 1970's almost 80's and the first mud wasn't made in Japan.

Prehistory

The first games which were recognisably MUDs appeared in 1977 on the PLATO system. In Europe at around the same time, MUD development was centered around academic networks, particularly at the University of Essex where they were played by many people, both internal and external to the University. In this context, it has been said that MUD stands for "Multi-Undergrad Destroyer" or "Multiple Undergraduate Destroyer" due to their popularity among college students and the amount of time devoted to the MUD by the student. The popularity of MUDs of the Essex University tradition escalated in the USA during the 1980s, when — relatively speaking — cheap, home personal computers with 300 to 2400 baud modems enabled role players to log into multi-line BBSes and online service providers such as Compuserve.

This why I can say NWN on aol had the first true pvp combate system and clans.

And the wiki above confirms it.

The first known MUD was created in 1978 by Roy Trubshaw and Richard Bartle at Essex University on a DEC PDP-10 in the UK, using initially MACRO-10 (an assembly language) and, later, rewritten in BCPL; also used was a database description language, MUDDL.[1] They chose the acronym MUD to stand for Multi-User Dungeon,[2] in reference to another PDP-10 game called Dungeon (or DUNGEN due to the six character filename limit), which was later commercially released by Infocom under the original development code name Zork[citation needed]. Zork in turn was inspired by an older text-adventure game known as Colossal Cave Adventure or ADVENT. The classic game MIST (also part of Essex University MUD) which could be played from any computer connected to JANET (a European academic network), became one of the first of its kind to attain broad popularity.[3]

Oubliette, written by Jim Schwaiger, and published on the PLATO system predated MUD1 by about a year. It was so difficult that one could not play it alone: in order for players to survive, they had to run in groups. While Oubliette was a multi-player game, there was no persistence to the game world. Following it, also on PLATO, was a game called Moria written in 1977, copyright 1978. Again, players could run in parties but in this game it was also possible to effectively play while only running one character. They were graphical in nature and very advanced for their time, but were proprietary programs that were unable to spread beyond PLATO. Textual worlds, which typically ran on Unix, VMS, or DOS, were now far more accessible to the public.

Another early MUD was Avatar, began around 1977 and opened in 1979, written by Bruce Maggs, Andrew Shapira, and Dave Sides, all high school students using the PLATO system at the University of Illinois. This MUD was 2.5-D game running on 512x512 plasma panels of the PLATO system, and groups of up to 15 players could enter the dungeon simultaneously and fight monsters as a team. Avatar, with by far the most hours played of any PLATO game, is still vital and running, playable by anyone, on the emulated mainframe at www.cyber1.org and via the NovaNET NPT service.

In the late 1970s there were numerous other PLATO games which were MUD-like, in various stages of development, some open, some never opened. Some were essentially single-player games but had some multi-player interaction such as communication and shared halls of fame. These games influenced the development of more well known PLATO MUDs such as Avatar and Oubliette. Then, these games were referred to as 'dungeon games'. Around this time, at least 10 people, and probably many times this number of people, quite possibly 100, were actively working on MUD games on PLATO. There was a sizeable community developing these games. It was common to see two to five people sitting side by side and working on different MUD games in room 165 or the author room of University of Illinois's CERL building. Many non-MUD games also came from this environment, such as empire and airfight.

Also about me working and where I work, I can tell anyone it's not the cia people.

Aradath online game I know all about it and it wasn't made by mythic, Infact mythic wasn't even a company till 1997. And they didn't release that game or make it.

So don't tell me about there history.

So read up.

Mythic evolved from an earlier game developer called Adventures Unlimited Software Inc. (AUSI) that was founded in 1984 when it launched Aradath, a commercial online RPG that charged $40 USD per month. AUSI later developed games for GEnie, creating an online version of Diplomacy with Eric Raymond in 1990, and Dragon's Gate in 1985, originally inspired by Aradath. Mark Jacobs was the president of AUSI and other developers there would later work for Mythic.

Interworld Productions was formed in 1995 by Mark Jacobs and Rob Denton. It was soon discovered that another "Interworld" was founded that same year and in November 1997 Interworld Productions changed its name to Mythic Entertainment. The company transferred Dragon's Gate from GEnie to America Online in 1996.

Mythic made numerous online games in the late 1990s, ranging from online action first-person shooters to online RPGs. Some titles include Silent Death Online, Magestorm Millennium, Darkness Falls: The Crusade, ID4 Online, Spellbinder: The Nexus Conflict, and Splatterball Plus.

Also MUDS are not MMO as explained above But i explain a bit more for you.

A Massive Multiplayer Online Game (also called MMOG or MMO) is a computer game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously, and is played on the Internet. Typically, this type of game is played in a giant persistent world. Many argue why small player count games with 200 and under players online are called massive multiplayer online games.

MMOs can enable players to compete with and against each other on a grand scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. Most MMOs require players to invest large amounts of their time into the game. Most MMOs require a monthly subscription fee, but some can be played for free.

The first graphical MMOG, and a major milestone in the creation of the genre, was the multi-player flight combat simulation game Air Warrior by Kesmai on the GEnie online service, which first appeared in 1987.

Enough said.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

03/30/07 17:08

Video13

Posts: 0
Joined: 03/22/2007
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: It's so boring

Since it just devoured my longer post, I'll state this one far simpler.

First, you've stated nothing proving I was wrong (assuming you referred to me). You stated that the first MUD wasn't out until 1977 (which I clearly stated the first MUD's were out in 1970's (the 70's, not 1970). You also noted that the first MUD was NOT from Japan. Now, this makes me presume you meant me. I stated "Japan, and some American MUD's, were.."

I did NOT state the first MUD was from Japan, I stated that some Japanese, and well as a few American MUD's were more competitive. This is not an indication that it started in Japan. So before you claim I am wrong, please learn to read and not place false words in my keyboard.

Secondly, Habitat was created in 1987 and was the first Graphical MMO out there. Originally designed by Chip Morningstar and Noah Falstein at Lucasfilm Games. Though, even having played it, "Graphical" is a relative term to that. lol

Next...Answer.com is hardly a resource for "reliable" information. They even state that some of their content is: Answers.com's collection of four million answers is drawn from over 120 titles from brand-name publishers, original content created by Answers.com's own editorial team, community-contributed articles from Wikipedia, and user-generated questions & answers from Answers.com's industry-leading WikiAnswers.

I like the "original content created by Answer.com's own editorial team" the best.

So, it's as reliable a source of information as wikipedia, which they also retrieve information from.

So your "enough said" is hardly enough since it was a direct quote from that link, and wasn't even edited.

Second Paragraph under "Overview and history". C'mon, stating "enough said" as if you know it for a fact when it's just a quote of someone elses opinion.

And lastly, as you say, Mythic wasn't around until 1997 officially. However, you claim they're not responsible even though they "evolved" from AUSI. Well, if the company is going to claim their fame from back in 1995, then obviously they DO claim responsibility for their products (regardless of whether it's from "Mythic" or one of the companies merged/bought out/renamed that it "evolved" from.

I mean, really. First thing on their webpage (which they honestly should update..) is:

QUOTE

Mythic celebrates 10 years as online gaming pioneer
October 2005 is not only the 10th anniversary of Mythic Entertainment but also four years since the successful release of Dark Age of Camelot. We're pleased to be able to post for the first time a brief history of the company and the 15 online games that brought us to where we stand today. We look forward to many more years of creating online games including our upcoming Warhammer® Online: Age of Reckoning. To celebrate Mythic sponsored the 10-4-10 sweepstakes. Checkout the list of winners here.

Now, I'm no math major here, but 2005 - 10 = 1995. So 11 years ago (It's been 11 years, and roughly 5 months "now") is when they at least recognize that "Mythic" started out as an online gaming pioneer. Even though they weren't Mythic until about a year or more later.

So, again...if all you're going to do is misquote, or state I'm wrong when you haven't read (obviously), please don't say things like:

So read up.

or

enough said.

Just link the article you intend to pass off as your own statements so that we can also read it.

03/31/07 08:27

quicks2234

Posts: 0
Joined: 02/27/2007
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: It's so boring

Wrong again my answers are not from answer.com. They are all from wiki's. I don't use Answer.com so you are wrong again.

And a few are from my own knowledge and there are wiki out there to back it up as well.

Also the game you claim was first mmo which wasn't like I stated above air warrior was,

here the game you said is the first mmo but it's no the first.

Habitat is a MMO (massive multiplayer online game), originally designed by Chip Morningstar and Noah Falstein at Lucasfilm Games. Although it is not the first online game, it lay the groundwork for modern MMORPGs by allowing more than 20,000 gamers to play in the same open-ended, virtual world, even though it doesn't contain typical RPG characteristics such as levelling, skills, abilities and classes. Still, Habitat forms the link between text-based MUDs and modern MMORPGs.

The game was originally released as a beta test and could only be played through Quantum Link, an online service of Quantum Computer Services (which later became America OnLine), and was only available in the evenings and weekends, as network traffic was cheaper at those moments. You control an avatar, seen from a third-person perspective in a 2D world. Avatars can gesture, move around, communicate with other characters, and manipulate objects. The world consists of thousands of regions - different environments that can be accessed through doors, teleportation and other entrances. You can also communicate through the in-game mail system or by using ESP (telepathic abilities), and personalise your avatar with the skin tone, features, or clothing.

Players can visit stores, houses, pubs, forests... and use objects such as tools, weapons and magical items. The stress is on the social dimension. You can get married, play games, write a book, go adventuring, visit theatres or lectures, or start a company, a guild, or a religion. Each player has a bank account and there is an in-game economy based on tokens. The game designers even appeared in the game as powerful opponents, and global quests were organised. These are presented as one-time challenges, and not as instances multiple players can encounter at different moments. Players can also turn into ghosts to discover new areas without risks. Although there are no real classes, people can behave as thieves, law enforcers or clergymen. There are no regulations and players are only limited to what the game code allows. Quests are provided by the Oracle, an almighty entity that 'created' the Habitat.

New features were added gradually. Rather than controlling or limiting the possibilities, the developers observed gamers' behaviour and introduced novelties according to the needs. It also includes PvP fighting (player vs. player) and safe zones in the cities. Habitat has its own newspaper, The Rant, documenting events and reserved for announcements.

The project was ended in 1988, but resurfaced later in 1988 as Club Caribe, and as Fujitsu Habitat in 1990 when the technology was licensed to Fujitsu. Eventually, Fujitsu bought it entirely and launched it as WorldsAway in 1995. The game currently lives on as Vzones and the fantasy variant Second Kingdom. Right now, the unrelated Second Life incorporates most of Habitat's mechanics.

This is taken from this link.
They are very well know site.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/habitat

I never said it was my own statements at all, but all your are from aswers.com that why you mentioned it in the first place. I mentioned above that a lot stuff i posted was from a Wiki. Maybe if you learn to read you would know that, Just cause a company buys out another company evolved from it doesn't mean it's there game.

It's like the superman comic book was written buy a guy who sold it to Dc comics.

But Dc comics didn't come up with the idea for superman. But in your single minded logic you tell us all they did.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

04/01/07 16:04

Video13

Posts: 0
Joined: 03/22/2007
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: It's so boring

Um..if you notice, Answer.com states they get some of their information from Wiki. Ergo, you're answer was from there.

Ironically, never used answer.com before. I did a search on one of your statements, which brought up the exact quote you gave. Which, goes back again to the fact they use Wiki as their source of material.

Yer quote was (in a relative fashion) from wiki but was identical on answer.com.

So yes I'm wrong on your source (by the way, wiki is hardly a place to quote. It's sources are, just as Answer.com, user driven as well. Ironically, the source material is the same whether it was wiki or answer though since it's still directly quoted.

You also did state "so don't tell me about their history" in a "I know this for a fact".

By the by, just for the record, Mobygames is also driven by personal opinion, not facts.

The True irony of most of this is that I even was agreeing with you on most of these facts, yet you claimed I was wrong when you sited the same information. You just quoted it from Wiki. Odd then that you're trying to argue this, poorly I might add.

As for the quoting of citations on Habitat.

MobyGames is the world's largest and most flexible electronic game documentation project in existence. And best of all, it's added to, rated, and reviewed by you--the gaming public. MobyGames is, literally, built by gamers.

From their own site.

By the by...you even posted this part:

Although it is not the first online game, it lay the groundwork for modern MMORPGs by allowing more than 20,000 gamers to play in the same open-ended, virtual world, even though it doesn't contain typical RPG characteristics such as levelling, skills, abilities and classes. Still, Habitat forms the link between text-based MUDs and modern MMORPGs.

Ie..it was the first graphical online MMO with 20,000 users.

Here, you enjoy linking other documents. Let's look at Game Innovations. Another well known site.

Description
Habitat is the first massively multiplayer online game to feature a graphical interface.

Also, evolved from, in fact, means that you do own it. Your children are "evolved" from you...you take responsibility for them. You, as a "Mythic Employee" still claim DAoC as your game, even though if you get bought out in a year, it's still "your product".

Bill Gates, for example, has moved out of Microsoft onto a more "part time" basis, with that whole idea of his to leave it behind (he'll be chairman though of course...can't keep his hands outta the cookie jar) in the next few years he said. If they change the name of Microsoft, they won't suddenly "not" own all the stuff they owned before. That would be silly. Merging with a company and taking over their products merely means you also take those products (the good and bad) as your own. When Motorola bought out Symbol Technologies at the begining of the year, they didn't suddenly "not" own Symbol equipment. What a silly notion that would be. In fact, they profited off of it. And then apparently fired like 30,000 employees or something I believe the news stated. Go figure. But they kept the products as their "own" and it's now a "Motorola" product, not a Symbol product.

Anyhow, you've proven you're not really arguing facts, just quotes from Wiki. You've also proven that, despite the fact I was agreeing with your facts stated initially, you didn't really listen and you just wanted to argue. Ergo...this thread is dead. It's beaten more than a shot of vodka, two reindeer and a weekend in the Alps.

Enjoy the "debate" if it continues onward.

04/02/07 07:49

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