GameAmp: DM-Fractionary Feedback

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chachu

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DM-Fractionary Feedback

As many of you know, us monkies over at ::LOB:: have employed soma on building a new pub TDM map. Some of you have even played it (5v5 WS ON). Currently, we are looking for 4v4 WS OFF scrimms on it. But I digress.

While soma is the architect, this map is being shaped by the feedback of the Central and Eastern North American TDM Community. We're up to revision Alpha 10 (no it's not beta yet). we "playtest" the map nightly, with 1-2 map restarts from 9:00pm - 11:00pm on The Fractionary.

Bear in mind that a12 will feature some totally new layout dynamics, as well as a possible weapon switch here and there. So while soma is hard at work on the next build, i'd like to gather some feedback on the current build from those here.

i would really appreciate it if some of our community veterans - like con and gsk - would give it a go 4v4. It's on our chicago ladder server.

i've had comments from skilled players that range from "wow, great flow" to "this sux0rs". so if you have concerns, issues and want to have a chance to make this map better (instead of whining about how there are too few TDM maps) please use this thread to do so.

Please note that soma will ignore comments like "the textures are boring" and "i can't tell where i am". Texturing is an ongoing process and will be finalized after the layout has solidified.

p.s.2 - spawn points are fux0red in this build :(

/another long winded spiel from chu.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

02/15/05 17:30

NE_ra

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

I'm not trying to be rude. I don't pub at all so I haven't played the map but every single decent+ player I've spoken to (without me even asking about it) says the map is a horrid piece of feces.

Example:

"god just got back from the fractionary, that map they are making is a fucking piece of garbage."

"that map is horrid"

"dm-fractionary reminds me of the smelly shit I took 10 minutes ago!"

Soma is very talented but I don't think this map is on the right track according to what I've heard from anyone who can dodge and shoot.

I'll download the map later probably and give some of my own feedback.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

02/15/05 18:00

Saito

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

I don't think anybody here will argue about "zomg textures are boring more eye candy plz", and if you are looking for 4v4 scrims #gsk, we have 4 on most of the time. You just might want to give who is on a heads up that it's a new map you want to play on.

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02/15/05 18:01

NE_ra

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

QUOTE

i would really appreciate it if some of our community veterans - like con and gsk - would give it a go 4v4. It's on our chicago ladder server.

ps, lol @ that

02/15/05 18:03

dawgpound

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

I only played an ffa vs bots and the layout looks ok, but it's not very impressive. Plus the spawn points are extremely fucked right now.

It's not enough to succeed, others must fail.

02/15/05 18:03

SargeLOB

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

he's working on the spawns and some new ideas, it is an alpha after all..

$arge::LOB::
Stop the world please, I'd like to get off

02/15/05 19:26

j00rBuDdY

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

QUOTE

he's working on the spawns and some new ideas, it is an alpha after all..

there's a difference between saying "hay omfg this map needs tweaks" and "hay OMFG I LIKE KILLING INFANTS WHEN I PLAY ON THIS MAP JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST CTRL + ALT + DELETE PLZ"

02/15/05 20:38

chachu

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

QUOTE

I'm not trying to be rude.

then don't.

QUOTE

I don't pub at all so I haven't played the map but every single decent+ player I've spoken to (without me even asking about it) says the map is a horrid piece of feces.

weak-ass cop-out.

QUOTE

I'll download the map later probably and give some of my own feedback.

gg.

02/15/05 21:44

chachu

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

QUOTE

i would really appreciate it if some of our community veterans - like con and gsk - would give it a go 4v4. It's on our chicago ladder server.

ps, lol @ that

how do you propose testing a map 4v4 WS off? maybe you'd prefer GRENREV (no offense) to beat on a pickup team of assault noobs?

02/15/05 21:46

NE_ra

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

Everything I said was simply forwarding what I had heard from others, you asked for feedback, you got it.

I was laughing at you calling gsk veterans, not your suggestion of methodology used to test. I like grnrev a lot thanks.

I also fail to see how because I don't pub, therefore not being able to test a map being betatested on a PUB is a cop-out.

I will hop on the server maybe tomorrow once I'm not pumped full of meds. (I am very sick at the moment.)

02/15/05 21:49

Saito

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

FLAME WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Though I think the misunderstandings are fixed now.

Chu we pretty much always have 4 after work hours and scrim constantly. I'll mention the idea to the GSK guys and see if they are open to it.

02/15/05 22:10

MeatBAG_LOB

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

No probs ra, we welcome all feedback. Sorry to hear your hearing such strong dislike for the map. Everyoone certainly has their opinion but personally I find it sad that ppl would use such harsh words for a guy (or his maps) who has done nothing but create great TDM maps for the community... and asking nothing in return. Do you know any other map makers that focus on making comepetive TDM maps? I don't. And I doubt anyone would disagree we need better maps. So even if the map doesn't appeal to your particular style of play why go out of the way to call (1) month of someones hard work "garbage". I guess contructive criticism is out of the question? I do realize these commements didn't come from you directly ra but I'm passing this off to you since you posted these comments.

Again this is in the early stages of the map. So suggestions on how to make it better would be prefered which is why we opened it up to the public on our Fractionary server. And btw, we've been getting way more positive feedback then negative so I'm sure Soma would absolutely love to hear the reasons behind the negativity... "horrid" doesn't help him. Hell, I heard the early stages of Goose were described poorly as well so lets give DM-Fractionary some time. Soma is a smart dude and much like with Goose I'm sure he'll keep working it until it gets to where it needs to be. He's also an artist and like most artists they will always try and create something original instead of doing the old #9 that everyone likes. People in general just don't like change. That's a fact. Like 70% of his comments are "make it like Goose" "make it like Waisten". I'm sure this drives him crazy creatively. His mindset is to always explore new territory... good or bad.

Lastly, LOB funded this project to encourage good mappers to continue doing what they do. Plus it's just a decent thing to do in support of the community. Hopefully more competitive clans will consider seeking out good mappers in the future to do similar.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

02/15/05 22:15

Saito

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

Well, part of your “mostly” positive feedback is because your running the test of it in a bubble. On your server, with feed back on your forums. These are largely populated with people of a similar mind set. I think you will find that now things have been taken out of that bubble, the reaction won't be the same.

Take waisten, everybody loved it... till it was played in TDF and people had to actually scrim it, practice it and play it seriously. Then all of a sudden everybody hated it when it's flaws became glaringly apparent (and now it's never played and if you asked it for a scrim people would laugh at you). Some (a few) saw these flaws early on, the rest only saw them when forced to seriously look at it over time.

I realize chu is trying to get people a bit more qualified to speak on the map (Read people that know TDM and know stuff like why antalus works, why goose works) and could throw out some gameplay suggestions. The thing is you aren't going to get that from a pub, and I think everybody here knows that, and that's specifically why he wants it scrim tested.

I'm all for new maps, and for the above reasons I do realize they should be play tested, and I don't think GSK would have a problem doing it.

02/15/05 22:58

Hamsgod

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

[QUOTE]
Take waisten, everybody loved it... till it was played in TDF and people had to actually scrim it, practice it and play it seriously. Then all of a sudden everybody hated it when it's flaws became glaringly apparent (and now it's never played and if you asked it for a scrim people would laugh at you). Some (a few) saw these flaws early on, the rest only saw them when forced to seriously look at it over time.
[QUOTE]

Just curious... What are the flaws in waisten that are glaringly apparent?

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

02/15/05 23:17

j00rBuDdY

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

[QUOTE][QUOTE]
Take waisten, everybody loved it... till it was played in TDF and people had to actually scrim it, practice it and play it seriously. Then all of a sudden everybody hated it when it's flaws became glaringly apparent (and now it's never played and if you asked it for a scrim people would laugh at you). Some (a few) saw these flaws early on, the rest only saw them when forced to seriously look at it over time.
[QUOTE]

Just curious... What are the flaws in waisten that are glaringly apparent?[/QUOTE]

1)weapon placement
2)map flow
3)waisten

02/15/05 23:55

Saito

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

Well, I'm sure all the people not playing it now have various reasons so I can only give you mine.

The first and largest gripe I have is the 100a room. What is it with soma and jump pads at the 100a? It worked in goose because the jump pad was an extremely risky way to get to the 100a, here it doesn't. Instead the jump pad is fairly safe (you have the cover of a wall (an indented one at that), and isn't used to take the coveted power up. Instead it gives you a ridiculously safe way out once you have it to make your getaway. Once the guy has the 100a is up away and gone. IMHO giving somebody such an easy escape once they have the power-up is just poor planing.

However it gets worse, you have the shock (a critical weapon in UT) smack dab next to the 100a. This means that most of the combat revolves around this room and drains values of other areas of the map you need to control (read you don't).

Other issues. The amp and 50a have no real area or place, instead they feel to me like they were just dumped near a wall. Call me crazy but the amp should have a definitive area to take, or to defend when the time comes, here it doesn't, it's just against a wall in a huge open room. But wait.... we get a jump pad here? Well these one is just complete suicide, but once again does this jump lead to anything directly? No it doesn't.

With the 100a being the most important room (good gun + power up), the amp room impossible to control, the game ends up revolving entirely around the 100a, with brief ventures out to get the weapons (hell the map is so fast to transverse you could have a roamer do it), with brief chaotic thrashes around the amp (a room you can't control).

All of that may be fine for a pub, but isn't for a competitive setting.

One totally personal issue, AR pick ups? Whats the point, you can get a second ar from a team mate, if you have to have a pick up there make it something worth picking up. If you can't figure out something, perhaps you need to retool the weapon placements. Either way it's a waste (unless on a pub, but we aren't talking about pubs).

02/16/05 00:02

chachu

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

saito is dead-on regarding Fractionary. it's been pubble tested and now we want to try it in a tactical enviroment.

re: waisten -
the major problems with could be solved with weapon and powerup re-positioning. i spoke with soma about this briefly today - and he is aware of those issues. i just wonder if he would be willing to roll out an LE version for the TDM community.

it would be simple to do in UED, but the final placements should undergo ruthless hours of scrimming... so what TDM clans wants to be responsible for helping make Waisten a competition class map? I think the LcD Ventrillo server could get it done nicely :)

and saito - once a12 or a13 is out (and the spawn point issue is addressed) i think this map will be scrimmable.

p.s. how is the window or dropping down not an easy escape from the 100 cap on goose2k4? by your reasoning, goose2k4 must be horribly flawed

regards,
chu

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

02/16/05 01:13

Saito

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

well gsk isn't on the lcd vent, we got our own ;)

As for the spawns... spawns can always be fixed. Once you feel they are fine give a shout our way and we will scrim who ever is willing on it. If you all want, get soma and others in to spec it. Would help since then we can rant about it and point to specific moments. :)

02/16/05 01:50

chachu

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

dm-fractionary_a11 with fixed spawnpoints, modified weapon placement, map elements and some flow changes should be live on The Fractionary at about 7:15PM EST.

Map will lock rotation for 2-3 rounds, allowing 8-24 people to test drive the latest release.

cya.
-chu

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

02/16/05 16:22

chachu

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

QUOTE

Everything I said was simply forwarding what I had heard from others, you asked for feedback, you got it.

There's a difference between saying \"map = poo\" and \"it's way to easy to control the 100 amp\". More of the latter, less of the former.

QUOTE

I was laughing at you calling gsk veterans, not your suggestion of methodology used to test. I like grnrev a lot thanks.

Then say lol@gsk=vets. ASCII is an imprecise tool. I like grnrev a lot too.

QUOTE

I also fail to see how because I don't pub, therefore not being able to test a map being betatested on a PUB is a cop-out.

I meant that you relaying \"shit talk\" without ever having played the map, and under the heading of \"i don't mean to be rude\" was a weak ass cop out. Like I said, ASCII is imprecise.

QUOTE

I will hop on the server maybe tomorrow once I'm not pumped full of meds. (I am very sick at the moment.)

Thanks! I do appreciate that. First hand knowledge > hearsay.

Development Notes:

The LG is probably going to go back up to where the Flak is now, the 100 armor back to the a11 LG spawn and Flak back to a11 100 spot.

More work will be done in the middle (the storage container is a placeholder to try out the idea of breaking up the map).

An escape route will be added to the link/mini spawn.

Texturing and static meshes will continue to be added as the map evolves.

We're still in alpha.
-chu

02/17/05 11:19

ep1taph

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

To be brutally honest, most of the negative feedback most likely came from people who take being killed on a pub as an insult to their "elite character". Just because you couldn't rage some players on a possibly b0rked alpha version of a map doesn't mean it has no merit.

This community still plays the same maps it has played since UT2003 came out, which almost brings a tear to my eye. If I had a dime for everytime I played antalus... well i'd have a lot of dimes.

In a perfect world, the community would be more willing to accept new maps to take the place of the monotonous play of the old. Of course, this is UT.

02/19/05 13:02

SargeLOB

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

http://urlich.swissworld.com/dm-fractionary_a14.zip

a14 of dm-fractionary

kill people on it, and post thoughts here, thanks ^_^

$arge::LOB::
Stop the world please, I'd like to get off

02/24/05 07:58

j00rBuDdY

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

I dont like where the amp is. U have to struggle just to get to it, whereas in any other competitive map it's just kinda there and ez to take so the idea is that you have to fight over it.

02/24/05 15:04

Hamsgod

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

QUOTE

I dont like where the amp is. U have to struggle just to get to it, whereas in any other competitive map it's just kinda there and ez to take so the idea is that you have to fight over it.

It seems like to me the amp placement is great. You have to pay to get it. One thing that I have noticed about the amp is how strong it is on the map(amp>100a). I think that if the map was played competitively, there would be some great fights at the amp area. Both teams would be timing it trying to control the area. It is easy to take someone out going for it. I also dont think that it is that hard to get to it, once you learn how. The thing is there are only a few ways to get there. Its up top in the center so you are very exposed.

02/24/05 21:45

chachu

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

still haven't heard from team gravity or gsk about a14...

02/27/05 09:37

dawgpound

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

I'm not really interested in it. I didn't like it before, and it won't be used for Americup so I don't really care to be honest.

It's not enough to succeed, others must fail.

02/27/05 11:19

j00rBuDdY

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

QUOTE

I dont like where the amp is. U have to struggle just to get to it, whereas in any other competitive map it's just kinda there and ez to take so the idea is that you have to fight over it.

Well my point was look at every other competitively played map, and tell me how hard it is to get the amp. Anta = out in the open, goliath = out in the open, corrugation = out in the open, fractionary = sitting up in some weird ass and u have to boost dodge to, or lift jump to or whatever. It just doesnt flow well. The idea of the amp is to struggle to take the amp, not struggle just to get to the amp.

02/27/05 13:51

chachu

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

how is a lift jump a struggle to get to the amp?

02/28/05 09:44

j00rBuDdY

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

QUOTE

how is a lift jump a struggle to get to the amp?

well im sorry chu, i don't practice light jumps in my spare time like most pro's do, especially on a pub map that unfortunately wont be getting accepted into the competitive community.

02/28/05 16:07

c9h13no3

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Re: DM-Fractionary Feedback

QUOTE

maybe you'd prefer GRENREV (no offense) to beat on a pickup team of assault noobs?

No offense, but my team of assault noobs beat up on GRNREV....

Unreal Tournament 2004 TDM 4v4 Green Revolution Win 1/16/2005 Killaz in Action 0 demos
DM-DE-Osiris2: 101 - 31
DM-Campgrounds2k4-G1E: 134 - 49
DM-Goliath: not played

Not that it matters..... : /

EDIT - Dunno if you meant that as a crack on AS or not, but whatever, we don't all suck because we like another gametype.....

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

02/28/05 18:18

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