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bytekhan
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| A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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I've got a 37 energy/energy long range blaster that deals a pretty good amount damage and can grant invisibility. Typically in team play, I buff all defenders, trollers, and blasters with invisibility. However, I don't do this for Tankers and Scrappers. My thinking is that Tankers do NOT want to be invisible. Is the same true for scrappers? Also, it would seem that granting inviso wouldn't hurt a tank nor a scrapper during the fight because they've been seen anyway but it would still help a bit.
Follow up question...
Tanks or scrappers, when you're in the middle of a big melee, who do you want us long range damage dealers going after first? The bosses, lts, or minions? I'm sure the type of bad guy makes a difference but in general, what helps you out the most?
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| 04/17/07 16:59 |
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Kid Standard
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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| QUOTE | I've got a 37 energy/energy long range blaster that deals a pretty good amount damage and can grant invisibility. Typically in team play, I buff all defenders, trollers, and blasters with invisibility. However, I don't do this for Tankers and Scrappers. My thinking is that Tankers do NOT want to be invisible. Is the same true for scrappers? Also, it would seem that granting inviso wouldn't hurt a tank nor a scrapper during the fight because they've been seen anyway but it would still help a bit.
Follow up question...
Tanks or scrappers, when you're in the middle of a big melee, who do you want us long range damage dealers going after first? The bosses, lts, or minions? I'm sure the type of bad guy makes a difference but in general, what helps you out the most? |
Ultimately I don't think invisibility matters too much for a tank. I've still got Gauntlet going, and I'm still attracting attention when I hit my enemies -- it's just harder for them to hit me back, I suppose. But that only works if I'm attacking first. If you hit the enemies first with your blasts, they'll pay more attention to you than to me. Which is why tanks go in first, unless somebody's pulling.
Who I want you going after first depends on the team as a whole (do we have a rad/rad defender debuffing for us? Then kill anybody but his anchors) and on our opponents (Nemesis? Dear GOD leave those Lieutenants alone!). I'll tend to attack the boss first, myself, so I get his attention and that of his minions. Taking him down faster will probably still leave me in reach of minions... but the minions will also scatter more, which means you're in more danger. I can handle the boss, so fight the guy you need to keep yourself alive -- you're no good to me lying facedown on the ground with your cape fluttering around your knees.
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| 04/17/07 17:05 |
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Solarix
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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well first off, scrappers like invis for the most part, its good for mock-assassin strikes. and if its an attack with a debuff effect (not knockback), then i am happy to have the blaster/defender/controller attack my target, holding, or lowering defense, or whatnot is a lot more important to me than just the glory of killing a minion myself.
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| 04/17/07 17:09 |
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Veloce
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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INVISIBILITY FOR SCRAPPERS; it's added defense, so go ahead; he will aggro with his attacks anyway.
However, invisibility will allow him to get close enough for a good alpha strike, or move around more easily for scouting or positionning himself for a surgical strike. Most scrappers would choose to add this bonus to their effectiveness and tactical opportunities when they could (that's why many of them take at least stealth from the pool power sets).
It does wonders for those reviled stalkers, doesn't it?
INVISIBILITY FOR TANKERS: I'm not sure how it would affect their aggroing work, since with my tankers I never use taunt. Being invisible does however help me to get in the best position possible then BAM! Handclap or Footstomp and aggro 10 of them at a time. Works like a charm.
I have a few characters with the grant invisibility power ability; in every team I joined, I systematically gave it to each and every member and never did I ever hear anyone say to me that he didn't want it.
BLASTING FOR TANKERS; well it all depends on strategy and tactics based on team composition, opposition, terrain, objectives etc.
In some instances, a blaster will be most useful to get runners and hard to reach targets, in others he will be vital in nuking the strongest opponent before he trashes the team; yet in others he will be more helpful in decimating the mob as others target the main villain, while sometimes his ability to thin out a mob with pulling and snipping might be preferable to massive bombardment.
The thing to remember is that a blaster is a powerful offensive player on the team, arguably the most powerful... but a fragile one. This offensive role is essential (even if only as a pinpoint range defense for other heavy hitters of the team) but he must not put himself in jeopardy; because his firepower is needed. How the team is composed and how you plan your approach for each part of a mission will determine what is best.
'' Know thyself and know thy enemy, and in a hundred battles, never will you be defeated ''
Sun Tzu The Art of War
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 04/17/07 17:30 |
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Sturmwolf
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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I play meleetype ATs a lot and I say:
"Don't put that mojo on me!"
As a tank I get mad at you doing that, and as a scrapper it just annoys me, but I don't bother...
And targetwise I'm always the one shouting "Take out the minions first!".
Less opponents, less damage to the team.
No matter what the other say about "But the bosses are more dangerous...yadayada"...a good scrapper, or a mediocre tank, should be able to handle it anyway.
And RPGwise, it always look more heroic to take down the boss last.
(And Def-wise, I always anchor on the toughest foe available, so leave my anchor till last.)
I'm listening to real music.
Real Rock, real Gothic, real Rap, real Soul, real Funk...etc
(If you feel insulted by any of my posts.
Remember first, that I'm not writing in my native language.
You might missjudge me.)
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| 04/17/07 17:55 |
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Spunky One
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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I've been the invisibility caster, tanks usually say stay away, scrappers can go either way. I prefer playing melee toons myself and I don't like invis on my tank, on my scrapper I don't mind. Ask them first, its all personal preference.
I gotta agree with Kid Standard though about who you go after first. Depends greatly on your team and such. As a tank if its a small group I like to go for the boss first (unless there is a Q of course)...larger groups take out minions first. I like to see the blasters target off a melee toon, they will generate less aggro for themselves...unless your pulling of course =P
Cheers
@Spunky One
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| 04/18/07 06:44 |
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Dryca
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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tanks dont like the invis because they cant hold aggro with it on....and scrappers only dont like it if they are tanking.....that my 2 sense...:)
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| 04/18/07 06:53 |
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Phedre_D
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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The best thing to do is ask at the beginning of the mission what your team members like or don't like. Most tankers probably don't, but unless you ask you might not know. It is the same as with speed boost. I hate it as tanker when they slap speed boost on me unasked. The result is usually that I overshoot my targets and my taunt of footstomp lose effectiveness.
What to attack depends on the enemies. If you, as blaster, can easily handle one or two of them, go for the bosses and runners. However, if the enemies are red or purples, attack whatever the tank is attacking. That way you wouldn't get the aggro, and together you will be able to clear off the crowd the quickest. But this strategy depends from player to player. Some people might feel it as kill stealing.
I guess there is no hard rule about anything really.
The GameAmp Noobz Household!
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| 04/18/07 07:08 |
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bigspeer
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Ok, I'll lay down the ground rules for squishies. These must be followed at all times if a tanker is on your team to maximize damage output and minimize damage input.
Tank taunts the highest rank villain in a spawn to make sure he/she doesnt kill any girly squishies. If a scrapper is present, it should also focus on the highest rank villain. Scrappers were made to take down higher ranking foes because they get better chance of a critical hit as the rank increases.
Controllers should wait to place any kind of movement restriction (hold, immobs, slows, KDs) until the tank has them in a tight group. This will ensure the Sally-troller does not take aggro and die.
Blasters should not attack until the tank has the proper aggro (even before executing their Nova attack). At the start of the fight, they should target the boss and fire their most powerful AoE at the boss, but only after the tank hits it first. Then said blaster should procees to take out the minions one at a time using single target attacks with an occasional AoE. This will significantly decrease incoming DPS for the tank and help to keep it standing.
Defenders do pretty much whatever they want, EXCEPT make a target untouchable (i.e. detension bubble or similar power). Defenders really cant screw up too much unless they try and tank, then they should be unmercilessly sacrificed to the villains you are fighting.
These are the Rules for Squishies and should be followed to a 'T' or thou shalt perish!
...
Ok, go ahead and laugh now. That was a joke. Pretty much do whatever you want as long as you don't cause a team wipe. There is a little bit of strategy in there that I use when I'm not tanking, but most of it is BS.
It's all gravy, baby! :p
And...
| QUOTE | | The best thing to do is ask at the beginning of the mission what your team members like or don't like. Most tankers probably don't, but unless you ask you might not know. It is the same as with speed boost. I hate it as tanker when they slap speed boost on me unasked. The result is usually that I overshoot my targets and my taunt of footstomp lose effectiveness. |
Good thinking Phe. Here's a tip that I use a lot (especially when I'm all cracked up): target the boss before you run in the just hit follow. this way you are guaranteed not to overrun your target!
My name is Jean Claude Van Damme and I dance for you...
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| 04/18/07 07:46 |
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Whimcycle
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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Hummm,
When I use to use Group Invisibility, tankers would uniformly asked to be excused. It actually help them hold the aggro a little longer being the only visible target. All the scrappers I've played with are gleeful when they get invise on them, per motives mentioned before in the thread.
=~Whimcycle~=
A fleeting shadow in the crowd.
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| 04/18/07 08:45 |
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Cold_Zone_II
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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Invis when I scrap is not something I thought about a lot. Speed has stealth, because SS + stealth ~= Invis. This I use for stealthing some missions when in Task Forces, or when I'm soloing. Soling for me means completeing as many missions as possible as quickly as possible, (bonus XP always makes for better XP gains than killing everything in sight).
I don't really care if I'm invis or not, up to whoever is granting it. I just wanna kill.
Speaking of which, kill the minions, cause I'll be helping the tank with the highest level baddies. If there is only one, I'll take tank's target. If not I'll concentrate on one of my own.
CoH Rocks
Blasters kill everything, usually before they get killed themselves. When it comes to dealing pain, a blaster has no equal. We just have a hard time taking our own medicine! So we love Tanks and 'fenders!
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| 04/18/07 10:19 |
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Hobsnob
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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| QUOTE | tanks dont like the invis because they cant hold aggro with it on....and scrappers only dont like it if they are tanking.....that my 2 sense...:)
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In my experience, having invisibility put on me has made no effect to my aggro holding. Once you have attacked something you are visable to it, no matter how many stealth powers you have on you. This applies to the whole group attacked. Anyone who has even touched a stalker knows this. And taunt and gauntlet only serve to make you even more visable. Thus holding aggro is made no more difficult. If anything, I enjoy invis for its defence buff and tactical advantages.
It is also a good precaution to put invis on melee characters. Being melee they are often the closest one to the other groups in the room that aren't being attacked. Though upon attack you are visable to the group you are beating down on, the invisibility still applies to the groups you haven't touched. This means tanks and scrappers are more free to move around when attacking without fear of attracting unwanted attention.
The only problem grant invisibility might cause a tank is the fact that aggro won't be accumulated quite as instantaneously when an attack is commenced. Without it, the group of enemies will most likely notice the tank and start attacking before he has reached them. However, with invisiblity the tank could be standing right next to the baddies and no be noticed. But this inconvenience is only slight. As soon as the tank attacks, taunts or, if he has an AoE taunt power, gets within melee range he will get the aggro of the group.
So I would advice giving tanks invisibility if you want. If they happen to object, thats their own opinion and you'd best accept it. They are often bigger than you.
Hobsnob
Thanks to Invasion Designs
City of Heroes/Villains
Brigadier - lvl 50 INV/SS/Pyre Tanker
Keishi - lvl 31 Kat/Dark Scrapper
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Twilight Blade - lvl 36 Claw/Nin Stalker
Keishi Kurai- lvl 32 Nin/DM Mastermind
Galvanic - lvl 30 Elec/Elec Brute
Astral Twilight - lvl 36 Warshade
All on defiant
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| 04/18/07 11:58 |
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Solaronn
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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I play a loyt of tanks and scrappers, and I have to think that invising either is not going to be a detraction from them going about thei business. Especially scrappers, who could use the added defense when trying to sneak around a mission or two. On Tanks I think just the added defense buff would be helpful. Don't know if any of my tanks was ever buffed with invis, but I have to assume they were at some point in time. All in all it can only help.
"Solaronn" (With way to many alts and servers to name)
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| 04/18/07 13:06 |
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Lunar One
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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Well I have one scrapper that has his own invisibility. I took it because it fit the concept of what I wanted the character to be. I dont mind invisiblity at all. Now SB just screws me up. I know it is better for me to have it, but I dont play well with at all.
   
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| 04/18/07 13:19 |
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Solaronn
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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| QUOTE | | Well I have one scrapper that has his own invisibility. I took it because it fit the concept of what I wanted the character to be. I dont mind invisiblity at all. Now SB just screws me up. I know it is better for me to have it, but I dont play well with at all. |
Yeah definitely agreed on that. I have a scrapper who has stealth. But on my tanks or scraps SB is just too much, especially my SR scraps, they get out of control with SB. I know it's supposed to be great for tanks, but I can take it or leave it. It never is that big a plus for me while in tank form.
"Solaronn" (With way to many alts and servers to name)
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| 04/18/07 13:38 |
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bigspeer
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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the worst map to have SB on are the dark blue caves.
SB for the end recovery alone are the reason why i'm willing to accept it in exchange for smashing my forehead off of a stone slab a few hundred times a cave mission.
My name is Jean Claude Van Damme and I dance for you...
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| 04/18/07 14:27 |
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Falcon15
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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I love SB on my defenders and tanks, no matter the map. I just grit my teeth and go. Bigspeer has great tips on Invis and basic strategy. SB and Aura the hell out of any tank, they'll be happy as a pig in slop. Make them invisible, and you are hurting yourself and the herding potential of a tank. You can't hold aggro if you are not visible.
Invisibility = great for squishies and scrappers
"The only substitute for good manners is fast reflexes" - Vlad Taltos
"Not all still water runs deep. Some of it is pretty damn shallow." - Personal Observation
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - Robert A. Heinlein
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| 04/18/07 14:35 |
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Warron Peace
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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My two inf:
As a heavy lover of scrappers, I know and understand that my job on the team is to take out the biggest baddest dude in the mob ASAP. The tank can do whatever he wishes with the rest of the mob, in order to keep squishies alive. I tend to get annoyed when I see a tank attacking the boss-type baddies. I'm killing him, I got his aggro, and I'm fine with it.
As for blasters? I'd say use you're big AoE damage to take down the minions. A good tank will already have the aggro from the LTs and boss (if need be, that is), so the AoEs won't make a great difference. If the mob is too big, take out the threatening minions first (like sappers) then focus on everything else. I got the boss, the tank will keep you safe, the fender/troller will keep you alive however they do that best. As a scrapper, I can handle just about any normal foe one on one. Ten on one, however, gets challenging. Tanks can get the aggro, and Blasters can take them down, fast. Faster than I could, thats for sure.
Thats how I, and most of my in-game friends, see the roles. Sometimes you come accross oddball characters capable of filling other roles better than their own. Blappers are one such example. My Fire/Kin is another. With him, I can wipe out every single minion in about 7 seconds time. The LTs don't take much longer. Bosses are his threat, so I tell both Scrappers and Blasters to take them out while I, a controller, handle the rest. Always gets a laugh, lol.
My two inf,
Warron
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| 04/18/07 14:39 |
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Sturmwolf
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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As we talk about SB...
I HATE this buff.
I don't want that sh*t on me.
Makes me run of cliffs and catwalks..run past foes...aggro random mobs when i run into them...can't use a normal stairway...etc, etc, etc.
My Endu-management is always fine, I can live without the extra-recovery.
All the stupid stone-tanks make the buffer think that SB is something wonderful.
I'm listening to real music.
Real Rock, real Gothic, real Rap, real Soul, real Funk...etc
(If you feel insulted by any of my posts.
Remember first, that I'm not writing in my native language.
You might missjudge me.)
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| 04/18/07 16:32 |
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Lunar One
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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| QUOTE | As we talk about SB...
I HATE this buff.
I don't want that sh*t on me.
Makes me run of cliffs and catwalks..run past foes...aggro random mobs when i run into them...can't use a normal stairway...etc, etc, etc.
My Endu-management is always fine, I can live without the extra-recovery.
All the stupid stone-tanks make the buffer think that SB is something wonderful. |
Hey I like stone tanks. Thats it now we are on....Dont say I didnt warn you...
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| 04/18/07 16:37 |
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Rhingo
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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As far as Inivis, as a scrapper I must admit I do enjoy being able to position myself where I feel I can do the most dmg, i.e. lining up my little itty bitty cone atk so that it could possibly hit more than one guy. Plus added def never hurts.
As a tank I am not too fond of it, though i really haven't expierienced having too much with my tank.
when in doubt as mentioned before, ask.
As far as SB goes I really don't mind it, however, I do have one scrapper in particular that does not like it and I usually will refuse it when asked. Which by the way has caused a few problems a couple of times and left me soloing instead of teaming. It is always a good idea to ask first.
Swiftness + Quickness + SB = don't worry bout the spawn at the end of the mish i got it, just worry bout that first spawn that i over ran. ;}
Virtue
Fire Bug XI 50 Fire/Fire/Force Blaster
Granite Gargoyle 46 Dark/SR/Body Scrapper aka: Rhingo
Crazy Crustacean 40 Ice/EM Tank
Deja View 34 Mind C/Emp. Controller
Mythology 30 Peacebringer
Bling-Bling 29 MA/Regen Scrapper
Fire Bug XII 26 Fire/Fire Tank
and various alts
Victory
Ape Sexy 33 NRG/NRG Brute
various alts still trying to find my niche in the villian world
Champion
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| 04/23/07 02:51 |
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marinex
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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Invisibility I can have or not have, once I aggro a Mob they know I'm there but the Defensive bonus continues at a reduced yeild. It does help me get closer but once my AoE Taunt that I use the herd or gather a mob ( mud pots, invincibility, etc ) hits them I am Visible anyway. I know no Tank who hates to have a good defensive buff.
1st Rule - ASK
| QUOTE | | All the stupid stone-tanks make the buffer think that SB is something wonderful. |
No Love, No Love at all*. Speed Boost is nice for most toons recovery and charge rates, just don't use it on hard to navigate ( blue caverns, council bases, etc. ) maps. Granted it helps a Stone Tank move at a more normal speed. Granite Armor really slows your movement but worse reduces your attacks recharge to about 5 times slower than normal. I have Haste, it only last so long, and I have not had time to make it perma.
1st Rule - ASK
2nd Rule - Don't apply without waiting till everyone is still or announce it.
I like people to hit the fringes, catch the runners and try not to spread the mob away from attack range if possible, Other than that, blast away.
Marine
* ( quoted from Malady/Malicious )
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| 04/23/07 05:03 |
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Sturmwolf
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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I mostly play my Invu-Tank(Lvl 49 attm), so I have no real PbaoE -exept Invincibility, but i don't think it is as powerful as Chilling Embrace or the like.
I need my foes to see me to get their attention.
When I am invisible I have seen it pretty often, that some foes simple didn't see me, even when I attacked foes nearby and they started to run towards my mates.
I hade to pick them up with taunt or running after them and hit them to get their attention.
If anybody here claims that invisibility doesn't interfere with a tanks ability to manage aggro, he have to call me a liar.
Cause my experience tells me something else.
Perhaps your Tanks are all elementaltypes packed with PbaoEs, Taunt AND Provoke, but if your the Supermantype of Tank you will notice that the foes start ignoring you.
I'm listening to real music.
Real Rock, real Gothic, real Rap, real Soul, real Funk...etc
(If you feel insulted by any of my posts.
Remember first, that I'm not writing in my native language.
You might missjudge me.)
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| 04/23/07 07:53 |
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greenix
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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Just by briefly skimming the posts above (because i would be up a long time for some debate that doesn't concern me), I can tell that you spent much more time expaining why and Invis Tanker would be good/bad and how does it effect the aggro. So i'm just gonna skip that because i'm never invisible and get to the the other question which is not in as much of the spotlight.
KILL THE BOSSES
I can not repeat this enough, since tankers arn't primarily damage dealers then they don't do as much damage as you. And who has the most HP other then AVs and Elite Bosses, ya the boss guys (unless your going against the Tsoo which has a boss for every day of the week and you can count some days in the next week). We can handle the minions just fine, so please focus on the bosses. It takes me a long time to kill a boss with my lvl 20 invul/ss tanker, and all that time the back guys are vulnerable.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
Full of Wisdom and Cookies!
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| 04/23/07 19:19 |
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Sturmwolf
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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Ok....IMO
KILL THE WEAKLINGS FIRST!
(Minions->LTs->Boss)
Fewer enemies = less DPS.
(Use the Boss as an anchor for the debuffs, so they last longer.)
(Shall I use some more "!" to make my point clear?^^)
I'm listening to real music.
Real Rock, real Gothic, real Rap, real Soul, real Funk...etc
(If you feel insulted by any of my posts.
Remember first, that I'm not writing in my native language.
You might missjudge me.)
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| 04/24/07 01:41 |
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bytekhan
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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| QUOTE |
(Use the Boss as an anchor for the debuffs, so they last longer.)
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Hmm... When playing with "Channel 7" my illusion/storm 'troller, using the Boss as the anchor for debuffs can sometimes lead to wasted debuffs. If only because everyone is concentrating their fire power on the Boss and he's going down real quick! About half the time I try to find a minion who is at the rear of the mob that is being attacked and use him as the anchor for debuffs. My mob debuffs seem to last a little longer this way.
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| 04/24/07 10:27 |
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Chuck Bronco
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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SPEED BOOST. Initially this would throw me way off my game with the Chuckster here. But I warmed up to it after a bit once I realized how quickly it was making everything recharge for me. Zipping around a map, when I was used to just slogging along, made me wanna darn near throw up. Not now, BRING ON THE SB, ME LIKEY.
And no Invis for me when im tanking, I want them to see me coming, keeps em off the rest of the team.
As far as blasting. With my eng/dev I tend to pick from the outside first and work my way in with my single target attacks. This way once you get to the last few, you can use the AoEs. They should be tightly packed around the tanker or scrapp. They will have lowered health and the AoEs should clean them up nicely.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
Tank'ns my Bidness and Bidness is GOOD!
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| 04/24/07 11:11 |
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Sturmwolf
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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| QUOTE |
Hmm... When playing with "Channel 7" my illusion/storm 'troller, using the Boss as the anchor for debuffs can sometimes lead to wasted debuffs. If only because everyone is concentrating their fire power on the Boss and he's going down real quick! |
Yeah...might be...but that's their mistake!
Don't try to undo their bads.
They have to learn.
They want the debuffs.
If they keep killing my anchor after I told them not to, I just start to hang back and watch mine.
When they realize that it is harder this way, I rejoin.
If not, I leave.
A Rad,ill or Kin has never trouble finding a new team.
PS:
If I am the Tank or Scrapper I try to avoid to attack the anchor.
A lot of Defs and Trollers liked my play a lot and gladly team with me ever after.
=P
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
I'm listening to real music.
Real Rock, real Gothic, real Rap, real Soul, real Funk...etc
(If you feel insulted by any of my posts.
Remember first, that I'm not writing in my native language.
You might missjudge me.)
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| 04/24/07 11:52 |
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Hobsnob
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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| QUOTE | I mostly play my Invu-Tank(Lvl 49 attm), so I have no real PbaoE -exept Invincibility, but i don't think it is as powerful as Chilling Embrace or the like.
I need my foes to see me to get their attention.
When I am invisible I have seen it pretty often, that some foes simple didn't see me, even when I attacked foes nearby and they started to run towards my mates.
I hade to pick them up with taunt or running after them and hit them to get their attention.
If anybody here claims that invisibility doesn't interfere with a tanks ability to manage aggro, he have to call me a liar.
Cause my experience tells me something else.
Perhaps your Tanks are all elementaltypes packed with PbaoEs, Taunt AND Provoke, but if your the Supermantype of Tank you will notice that the foes start ignoring you. |
The comments I made previously was based on my experiences with an invulnerability tank like yours. No "elementaltypes" other than my rarely used epic pool and however super he is he isn't packed with AoEs and he certainly doesn't have provoke. And yet I have had none of the problems you have described.
A look at the game mechanics is all it takes to solve the issue. From my experience of playing a stalker almost completely solo, I feel I have an adequate grounding in the subuject. When my stalker is stealthed, she walks up the the mob, unnoticed. As soon as she attacks, the subject and all others in the group can see her. No matter how many steath powers she activates. And other mobs in the room won't see her (she is still stealthed to them) but the "attack-ee" sees her and so does his mates.
Now, this is no different for a tank. If a group is aggroed, they can see you. I don't think it matters whom the mob is aggroed by; I am fairly sure the entire team is now visable to those attacked. The fact that they don't bother with you is probably because you mates did more damage than your opening attack, and overcame the aggro of your damage and gauntlet. Which is perfectly within the boundaries of a blaster or scrapper. Now, I haven't called you a liar, I'm sure that everything you have said is completely true. I'm just saying that blaming it on invisibility isn't right.
I have never seen a reduction in my ability to tank due to invisibility.
Hobsnob
Thanks to Invasion Designs
City of Heroes/Villains
Brigadier - lvl 50 INV/SS/Pyre Tanker
Keishi - lvl 31 Kat/Dark Scrapper
Project IcyFreeze - lvl 27 Ice/Storm Controller
Twilight Blade - lvl 36 Claw/Nin Stalker
Keishi Kurai- lvl 32 Nin/DM Mastermind
Galvanic - lvl 30 Elec/Elec Brute
Astral Twilight - lvl 36 Warshade
All on defiant
Global - @Brigadier
World of Warcraft - Vashj
Eidelar - lvl 40 Night Elf Rogue
Doralia - lvl 30 Human Priest
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| 04/24/07 13:22 |
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Thundarpants
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| RE: A question for Tankers and Scrappers |
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An interesting debate. Phedre hit the nail on the head though.
ASK!
It's really that simple.
Now for the reasons based on my teaming experience:
Our tanks generally don't want invis because they want any random patrol to notice them first. Potentially before their aura taunts can pick them up. This can happen when a pat or ambush comes up from behind the group. The Tank will most often be running point. So your squishies can get ganked by an ambush before it is noticed.
Scrappers are case by case and always refer to the "Ask" method. It is added defense, but they do not have an aura taunt. It will depend a lot on how the team dynamic is working, their preferences and what role they are playing.
SB...... Awesome power for everyone, kind of a pain to manage. In those damn caves I almost always assume no one wants it. But even in open zone reasons like the "overshooting your targets" issue for non movement challenged Tanks can be a problem. I see a Stone Tank, well yeah, I am going to assume that they want it. For the rest, we resort back to asking.
Toggles..... This usually involves running with that team for a little bit to see their game plan. There is merit to strategies that involve taking the minions out fast to reduce incoming DPS, and strategies that focus on big damage dealing bosses first. Both work as long as the team all has the same goal. Mob types dictate a lot of that too.
So I usually start by setting my toggle on the biggest boss first. Then I see how the team works the fight. If I feel that the main boss is going to go down first, I pick a Leut. They are a little tougher than the minions to keep the toggle running longer. Usually something from the back of the pack of enemies. Blasters will be tearing through the closest targets first as they destroy and auto target the next mob. Sometimes that idiot Leut decides he wants to be the next melee encounter and screws my game plan up, but on average it works out OK.
General Question I ask myself:
Does the boss in this mob have an AoE?
Yes: Bosses will be priority targets, don't set toggles on them.
No: Ask the team who they want toggled so it stays up a little longer in the fight.
Most times, the initial toggle debuff is all thats really an issue. After the DPS crew does their thing, nothing lives long so who had the toggle means very little.
Because of different people, playstyle and mobs there is no correct answer here. They are all right for the situations at hand. Asking, communicating your intentions to the team and observation of how your team is working is the real answer. You need to be flexible as you run with different groups. Many players are very skilled at their characters but the flexibility of playstyle can make that effective routing very different.
Like with so many different relationships we have to deal with day to day. Communication is the key.
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| 04/24/07 14:01 |
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