|
|
 |
Forum >>
PvP >>
General PvP Discussion >>
Melee vs caster, skill vs thought
|
|
| User |
Message |
johny bravo
Posts: 21
Joined: 07/14/2006
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
Well to start off I just started playing an assasin in random arenas and I have to say that in general most melle builds don't require much thought. Now before you jump on me let me explain as I am not saying any particular class is stupid but that they require different approaches
For the most part playing a melee character in PvP is pretty much the same thing. Pick a target and unleash you combo whether is be a KD chain or a assasin combo chain you basically just catch you target and hit him. Now there are thing to consider such as what hexes to I have on me, or am I blind but for the most part your sole job is to apply pressure by pounding on the other teams squishies. to me this involves more skill than thought. By skill I mean timing of attacks to interupt correct skills and knowing when is a bad time for you to attack (like when you are all hexed up)
Casters on the other hand require more thought to play. It not a matter of just managing one target (or the called target) but assessing multiple targets and deciding which spells to cast on who. For example a necro running an anti-melee build where there is only one melee on the opposing team may decide to cast SS on a caster instead of just laoding up on one target. Or say a monk having to decide who to cast guardian on when defending against multiple melee spikes. In the case of a caster it in not neccesarily the quick execution of a combonation of skills but he quick assessment of who to cast what on. A mesemer is actually a perfect example of this as a good mesemer can make 2 casters ineefective for quite sometime.
Now ranged classes (IMO) are more like casters then melee as they can attack multiple targets in quick succesion so again they can spread out their skills.
What are your thoughts on this one. Feel free to tear apart anything I said just don't get mean about it, no need for that.
Like I said I am currently playing a sin in RA and it is alot of fun but sometimes I feel like it is just a bunch of button pushing trying to get off the right combo.
And please this isn't a melee are noobs thread I do point out that it requires skill to play as a good melee character. I just don't think it requires as much free thought.
|
| 11/16/07 15:24 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
itsthatemochild
Posts: 18
Joined: 08/12/2006
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
i totally agree. playing a caster is like playing a game of chess, predicting your opponents moves and countering them. playing a melee character is like being the queen in that game (albeit a super beefed-up queen)- you are a very important part of the game, but you focus on your area instead of the larger picture. both take skill, but the skills required are totally different
"The most merciful thing in the world... is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." -H.P. Lovecraft
"He who is not radical at twenty has no heart,
while he who is still radical at forty has no brain."
|
| 11/16/07 15:32 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Hardstrike
Posts: 8
Joined: 06/22/2007
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
IMO its all about the build. Some caster builds can be as simple as a melee class. and visa versa.
Its all bout how good the skills hang together (like sever artery and gash for example) in other words, chaining.
and every build has ups and downs, just make sure your ups fit the enemy's downs ;)
 
|
| 11/16/07 15:40 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Rogue
Posts: 28
Joined: 12/09/2005
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
Nothing in RA requires skill or thought to play. Assassins will always be press 1,2,3,4 and 5 explode. Monks will always use guardian on anyone they see about to take physical damage, SoA on anyone under pressure and SB/PS on anyone about to get spiked (I'm not talking idiot spike here, I'm talking air spike or something. And not just one player doing that, that takes like 10 seconds for a single ele to kill anything). You just have to keep up your weapon swaps and manage your energy by using the most effective skill for the job. RoF is your "OHSNAP I JUST MISSED THE PREPROT" skill, etc.
Where as playing a midline caster is playing the, for lack of better term, bitch role. You press "t" when the warrior calls a spike and counts down. You press whichever skill you need to, shatter enchant, find a monk+gale it, divert something, shame something. Whatever the build you're playing is designed to do.
Playing a midline physical is different, you have to play like you're a bat out of hell on steroids on a California highway. You need to keep warriors snared so your monks can kite better, you need to keep the target your warriors call snared so they can explode it, you need to d-shot key skills on every team member, you need to poison as many people as possible, and you need to be on the split at the same time.
Frontline. This is different, you get to be deciding what to kill and what to ignore for now. You have to call for everything you want, snare this, blow up aegis, KILL THIS NOW. Gale 6, spike 7 in 3-2-1 explode. Now you're usually not going to be calling tactics, that should really be up to everyone, just make sure to communicate what to do and what to kill. Midline/monks need to communicate energy problems, overextension on the other teams warriors. What's splitting off, and how to counter it.
And then we have what you're talking about. The lowest level of "PvP" known to man. The idiot arena as I like to call it. Don't get me wrong, I'll play RA every now and then, especially if it's an off hour and some other people I know are playing so I get to face them. But really, player skill is so low there that it's really not worth comparing anything but builds. Rock Paper Scissors. Necro beats warrior beats ranger beats ele beats necro. Or something random like that.
Melee vs casters in RA:
Casters - cast spells. Have low DPS, but prettymuch everyone runs shutdown designed to kill whatever. People run stuff that is basically a counter to everything and good for nothing in practical use. See a warrior, put a hex or blind on it. See a caster, shoot it with something, see a monk, shoot it with something and wand off RoFs. Gale whatever, and basically heal yourself because what's RA without self healing? Oh that's right, a losing streak if you don't have a monk, and a losing streak if you do have a monk because you brought self healing when you could have brought damage. Except on rangers, you should have troll and mtouch, and know how to keep your monk clean.
Melee. Everyone plays melee different in RA. Some people take self healing on a warrior and no bullsstrike or frenzy. This is not only dumb, it's a waste of whatever you put in to replace bulls strike and frenzy.
Target swapping. This is where most melee people fail. They don't know what prot spells do and they don't know what to do about them. Well alot of the time the answer is to target swap and blow something else up. Your job is to make the monk feel that everything he does is useless. Frenzy is a 33% IAS, which is a 50% increase in DPS. Melee should know how to play defensively as well as go in headfirst and make stuff die. That means bulls striking offensive wars to give your monks energy a little break, that means shocking the assassin that just KD'd your now defenseless monk. That means putting deep wounds on stuff to draw infuses then going on and blowing up the infuser. Warriors are the boss on the field and need to have some serious awareness. I didn't even mention movement issues. You can move while attacking if you click to move and know when to click and then abuse your spacebar.
Oh and then there's the assassin, which gets its own category. 1v1, most things blow up. You should just be running around killing stuff, because it's what you do. You need very little awareness, because you're gonna kill something and that's always a nice boost for everything on your team no matter what.
As for thought, everyone on the team should always be thinking. What can we do to make them die more, what can we do less to make ourselves die less, what can we do more to make ourselves die less. Are we matched well 8v8? Are they destroying us on the split, have they fixed the catapult? Where's there runner. Warriors are always the ones to go and pressure the runners, because they can delay them longer than anything other than a water ele or cripshot. And water ele's don't see play anymore because HEV got buffed.
In short, to play frontline and backline take the most skill. To play midline you either get to be the bitch, or get to pretend to be some Olympian god.
IGN: Rogue Mysst. Guest me for GvG.
|
| 11/16/07 15:56 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
maddog199
Posts: 26
Joined: 10/02/2005
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
| QUOTE | Hi, I'm looking to guest for guilds for GvG and HA.
|
You know, sometime's when I look at your posts regarding PvP (generally) you could call them a bith arrogant. But if you read 'em a 2th or 3th time, you actually notice how it's only the hard truth (VERY HARD, but the truth never less)...
As on topic: I agree, although it is possible with the 2th profession to be sometime's a bith more complicated then just that.
Impossible? Hardly
|
| 11/16/07 16:15 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Hijaru Ta
Posts: 2
Joined: 07/31/2007
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
well my first character was an ele, and i don't think it takes much brains to play it. all i really had to do was to manage my energy, so instead of using meteor shower on an enemy with 30 health, just use fireball or something. Now you can kill the next enemy quicker easy. Well, that's for a fire ele, i just looked at the damage it does and put it in my build. simple as that.
later on i played an Assassin for in AB, and i loved designing my own builds for assassins. Well for an assassin, putting a build together isn't as easy as it is for a fire ele i think. Not only you have to place your attributes correctly, but what kind of sin would you be? A condition sin? KD sin?
then you have to put in the correct order of your chain and look out for your energy (will be gone in a few seconds)
okay this was about putting builds together, but now it comes to the fight.
Casters have low armor, so they have to look out for multiple attacks on them. For my fire ele i just use Bed of Coals for melee foes, and they'll be away in no time. For casters another AoE spell doesn't really matter. so ele isn't really a class to think at if you're fighting (imho)
assassins need to be extremely careful, you have low armor, one target, and 1 shot to kill your target. they have to know what skills the opponent has, to make him your target, or a foe to avoid. Unleashing your chain doesn't require any thought imo.
;EDIT; btw Johnny Bravo, this is ur 999th post ^^
GO FOR THE 1000 I SAY!!!
*makes a funny weird dance for Johnny Bravo*
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
IGN: Hijaru Ta/R I T U A List/Double O Zero/Nec Ro Manc Er/Cire Nasu/Lily Rubyshine/Shaolin Cookie/Frenky Stonestriker
99.9% of all Guild Wars players uses Ursan for PvE, if your the 0.1% that doesnt copy this into your signature
oh great my smiley drawing sig died >.>
|
| 11/16/07 16:41 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Nyoxis
GameAmp Staff
Posts: 8
Joined: 08/02/2007
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
The skill in playing any character (in RA etc.) is not usually from playing normally, like a 12345 skill chain. But it's from improvisation and making choices in a time of need that one can judge a melee character's abilities.
For example, you're midway through your normal spiking routine and you've just noticed that a mesmer has cast empathy on you. Do you, A: Continue in the hope you will be able to out dps your opponent, B: only use skills for attacking and forget auto attacks, C: Drop to the back line and heal up.
The results of decisions like the above are what distinguishes the average players from the high ranked pvp gods, or the winning team from the loosing.
The same can be applied to any class, two people are simultaneously taking damage from a blood spike- who to infuse? Should I interrupt ward of stability now or should I wait till they try to cast ward against melee? Should I give that enchant a cover or will that be wasting energy?
There was a post not dissimilar to this on the Idiot Savant's website though I think the site's gone now.
On a completely different note, does anyone know where the site with all the GvG match analysis videos (with the interviews from the playing teams) went?
Edit: GWVersus.com has closed to to the person not being able to afford upkeep. Such a shame, the videos were freakin' awesome. =(
Nyoxis.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
|
| 11/16/07 17:02 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Charlotte The Harlot
Posts: 4
Joined: 11/07/2005
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
| QUOTE |
Where as playing a midline caster is playing the, for lack of better term, bitch role. You press "t" when the warrior calls a spike and counts down. You press whichever skill you need to, shatter enchant, find a monk+gale it, divert something, shame something. Whatever the build you're playing is designed to do. |
Bitch roles are generally ones that take little skill like paragon or necro, b surge and dom mes still take skill to use and are not by most people concidered a bitch roll. They do still provide support for the wars/backline but they also have their independent activities where they aren't just being a bitch like some pressure through orb diverting splitting etc.
|
| 11/16/07 17:48 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
anan saman
Posts: 130
Joined: 01/10/2006
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
i know what you mean. but that's more like that all the "noobs" or people who want to test out an build go to RA, and all the good people to TA. then the logic consequince is that there are only pvx builds in RA wich require 1,2,3,4,5 and not 1,4,2,2,3,6. that's why i think. not just because of it.
when i play warrior i can't press 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. i got to think. when i see a sin attacking the monk i wont attack the monk myself, waste of my build and pressure. i can better shut down a mesmer, and let the sin handle the monk. but that's me and there are ofcourse lot of other people who will never do this and are like, LETS NUKE THE MONK. all people are like half their spike build(for sins biggest problem, the need LA etc) and the team is stuck. so...
it denpends!
thanks to mimori for this nice signature!
the video from my siggy
if you find big grammar faults in my posts, please pm me to tell me what i did wrong.
|
| 11/16/07 18:08 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Ganymede
Posts: 4
Joined: 07/02/2007
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
Most of this depends on what kind of person you are. Some people are horrible at playing certain professions, but excel at others. I personally think that caster builds are the easiest builds to play. Like monking for example, it has to be the easiest casting profession in the game. All you have to do is wacth and have semi good reactions, if someone is about to get spiked for instance all you have to do is get ur finger on that infuse key and press and bam! crisis avertaded. For a midline caster get your target and stay on them and do your job not that hard, all you have to do is watch to see if you have any hexes that can hurt you on youself. I would have to say the melee profession is the hardest to play. There are so many things you have to worry about. Like others have said anti-melee hexes will down you really fast if you do not watch yourslef. You have to be able to stay on your target, which means watching those body blocks, wards, snares etc.. Another complication is spiking with the group, you do not have the luxury of being able to stand and spike from a distance. You have to get up in there and be able to spike on time, or your doomed to fail. Also you have to be able to watch for enchanments on your target that might stop your chain or the attack that you might need to pull off to kill the target. I would have to say that the melee profession has the most skills against it. You have spells, stances, hexes, and conditions to worry about that can stop you. Yes I know by saying this some people are going to say that casters have skills against them to. Yes they do but not as many against them as the melee does. Stances do not block you attacks, certain enchantments like gaurdian or ageis, you only have to worry about daze, the melee have to watch out for blind, crippled, weakness, all of those can ruin a melee build to uneffective. Yes casters have to worry about hexes but some of those hexes work on melee to like deversion that can ruin a combo to. So in my opinion I would have to say that the melee profession is the hardest profession to go by with.
-Ganymede
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
|
| 11/16/07 18:25 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Paranon
Posts: 0
Joined: 07/12/2006
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
well. in ra there is, as rogue said, no skill in pretty much most builds.
however in GvG, frontline often uses more skill that midline, you've got to call a target and its basically you and the other warriors job to coordinate and spike that target, its your job to listen to the casters and, if there is an annoying mesmer, to take him out, etc, its not just hitting buttons, i have played all classes, and warrior is the one i come out of GvG tired from, monk is alright, watch the enemy frontliners and prot, midline is again, alright, agreed, you have to interrupt and w/e, but, speaking from experience, warrior is often the most taxing.
all classes take a certain amount of skill and none is less important that another, however, in a serious GvG, frontline is often very taxing.
|
| 05/07/08 15:16 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Skippz
Posts: 1
Joined: 02/11/2007
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
Tbh if you want skill play another game. MMORPGS no matter what type are completely easy to play.
HA is just plain easy to play a caster in! meele class I don't know, never use them in HA. GvG is the only thing I can say will take skill. Co-ordination, tactics etc etc. HA is just SOOOO over rated, not to mention boring as hell >.< TA has gone downhill RA is just lame and full of complete and utter tards.
Such a nice negative post!
Signature Made By Blazings! <3
|
| 05/07/08 15:27 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
CorruptNinja
Posts: 1
Joined: 02/16/2008
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
Tbh, the only profession you could even say takes any brains and or thought at all, is Mesmer. The day it takes skill to play GW is the day I buy a set of FoW. (which will be never) :s
AKA: Toa Hahli
|
| 05/07/08 15:30 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Aeon
Posts: 0
Joined: 04/23/2008
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
At first, I always thought that playing W was all about running around hitting things. As I got better at the game, and more experienced, I realised that it basically boils down to this statement:
"The game revolves around the warrior."
By now, I'm assuming most people have read Ensign's calculations about why nuking sucks, and how warriors deal the most damage.
If you look at the typical balanced GvG team at the moment, you have:
2 Warriors
1 Ranger or Paragon
1 Mesmer
1 Elementalist
2 Monks
1 Ritualist Flag Runner
The warrior's job is obvious - kill stuff. The paragon's bar is pure assistance to the Ws with some buffs and spike skills, and (usually) an interrupt and enchant removal. The ranger usually has some interrupts and movement control. The mesmer has shutdown, and sometimes a spike assist. The elementalist has shutdown and spike assist. Monks keep you alive. Rit has splinter and ancestors. Notice that each of these either interact directly with your warriors, their warriors or have shutdown to stop them from touching your warriors.
As for what takes most skill, I'll go through them all here.
Warriors: Tab through the whole enemy team. Call spikes. (Usually) Call strats.
Ranger: Tabs the whole team, splits a lot, needs low ping
Paragon: Hits T on a spike, spams all his shouts
Mesmer: Times diversion on key skills, interrupts other key skills.
Elementalist: Focuses on the 2 enemy warriors, and hits T on spikes.
Monks: Need good reflexes and energy management
Runner: runs flag, defends base, adds damage by targeting allied warriors.
We can clearly eliminate the paragon, and since reflexes aren't skill based, we can drop monks. With a bit of practice, you start to notice patterns in the way almost all people use skills, so we can drop mesmer too.
That leaves us W, R, E, Rt. Assuming you aren't horrible at the game, you won't be spamming BSurge, which means you'll always get it off to completely stop enemy spikes. Other than that, ward spam and T+orb aren't that difficult. The rangers jobs, although many, aren't really that hard - they're your jack of all trades - your answer to almost everything - they can, and do, do a little bit of everything. This means that the character by definition is not a specialist.
This leaves us the Warrior, and the runner. Out of these two, I'm really hard pressed to tell which requires more skill. Warriors need to know when to hit what, runners need to know when to completely defy the point of them being there. Yes, that means there are times when the runner most definitely should not be running. From my experience, the better players you play with, you find the warriors and runner talking almost constantly since they both need as much information as they can get.
So, in the context of GvG, I'd say frontline and runner take the most skill.
Next, and where this thread originated from, I'll consider RA.
People run every build imaginable here. Simply being good at the game won't guarantee you a win. You need the rest of your team to listen, and also be able to use their characters. Aside from the people with "test build" or "fun build" or "practicing x", another common tactic is an "instagib" (in more common terms - someone designed to deal enough damage to kill a character in a short space of time - usually an A, shockwave or ride the lightning ele, or toxic chill necro). Pretty much every non-monk character just needs to mash the buttons until they die. The monk, on the other hand, needs to deal with overextending people, frenzy on low armor people, and any other stupid thing you can imagine, whilst dealing with instagibs. So, having to compensate for your teams badness takes more skill than mashing buttons.
After going through just these 2 examples, I guess you could pretty much sum up this post into:
"The class that takes most skill depends on where you are and what you're doing."
Feel free to pm me ingame if you have any Qs about what I say or about game mechanics, or just wanna talk random crap :p
Main IGNs: Megido Hax / X Megido X
|
| 05/07/08 15:50 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Aeon
Posts: 0
Joined: 04/23/2008
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
| QUOTE | | Tbh, the only profession you could even say takes any brains and or thought at all, is Mesmer. The day it takes skill to play GW is the day I buy a set of FoW. (which will be never) :s |
I didn't know you could afford a new set of FoW everyday - you must be rich.
Feel free to pm me ingame if you have any Qs about what I say or about game mechanics, or just wanna talk random crap :p
Main IGNs: Megido Hax / X Megido X
|
| 05/07/08 15:53 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Wyat_hawke
GameAmp Staff
Posts: 53
Joined: 06/16/2006
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
Nice thread necromancy here.
Not that it's a bad thing, there are some pretty good views and ideas getting promoted by different people here.
|
| 05/07/08 16:13 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
KahlanXvii
Posts: 12
Joined: 08/09/2005
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
Lol aeon learn2munk :p
Questionable Tactics [Hax] A Na Ki N Fu Se
|
| 05/07/08 16:26 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
Rogue
Posts: 28
Joined: 12/09/2005
Credibility: 0 pts
|
| RE: Melee vs caster, skill vs thought |
|
|
|
Since I don't remember making that post, I thought I'd just quote this:
| QUOTE | | a bat out of hell on steroids on a California highway. |
And then laugh at myself.
EDIT to the original post: Bsurge at a high level takes skill, and memsers take skill.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
IGN: Rogue Mysst. Guest me for GvG.
|
| 05/07/08 19:56 |
Login to rate this user's post! |
|
|
|
|
|
