Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
We hear these complaints a lot, how A-nets skill balancing is ruining the game for PvE-ers, making it harder/impossible to do "x" type of farming/adventuring or questing. In this post, I will try to explain why this happens, as it should be quite obvious.
Skill balances will almost never happen for PvE, because skill balance for most PvE-ers means to buff something. Overpowered skills will never be a problem for PvE-ers, since they all can use it. A lot of people complained when Searing Flames got nerfed, even though it was actually seriously overpowered, promoting almost full team consisting of Elementalists. Overpowered skills in PvE is a good thing, as it makes the game easier to play.
For PvP however, overpowered skills in the meta is horrible, because if someone comes up with a new gimmick that is overpowered, everyone is either forced to bring a direct counter, or they have to run it themselves. This will not ever create skill diversity, even if there were several gimmicks to play. It would make the games more predictable, and very boring. PvP is a game of hard math (who's using the best skill bars), and a game of skill. The champion should be the one who is skilled, not running an overpowered bar. Everyone can run overpowered bars, it shows no skill. Not everyone can run a decent bar though, and actually win as well. That is the main reason why PvP-ers demands nerfs over buffs, because buffs can lead to even more gimmicks and overpowered builds.
This will of course never really happen in PvE. If a overpowered skill comes out in PvE, the people complaining about it being overpowered will get this response back at them:
QUOTE
If you don't like the skill, then don't use it yourself.
This quote works because the skill is not affecting anybody else except the player. In pve you can adjust the difficulty level by running sub-par builds and setup.
Balance in PvE will almost never happen, and when it does it's only to promote more different professions getting a chance in groups. This of course, equals a buff on their skills. There will never be many nerfs in pve, because nobody wants them. The only time we see arguments about it, is when a build template is brought up that makes the game easier for everyone. The Ursan Blessing is a very good example. With this skill, almost every group can now go into the most high-end areas of the game, and complete them with almost the same time as a normal, balanced group. There have been complaints about the skill, but they've all gotten the same response:
QUOTE
If you don't like the skill, then don't use it yourself.
Low end PvE-ers think the skill is great, because they now can play the most high-end stuff of GW PvE, whereas the high-end PvE-ers rip their hair out because the statement gimmick build > skilled player all of a sudden becomes true. PvE will never be balanced, because balancing includes nerfs, not just buffs. And most PvE-ers hate nerfs, even the slightest ones.
But let's just for a second assume that PvE actually became balanced, that A-net decided to try and balance the professions for PvE. Do you think that actually would be good for the game? Imagine the big nerfs that would come then:
The Death of Farming. The 55hp build, the geomancer, the vwk rit, they all get the shaft. From now on, all areas have to be entered with a full team
Monks, eles and warriors get nerfed, to balance them towards the other professions
Assassins, Ritualists, Paragons and Mesmers become hugely buffed. Energy surge now deals 200 damage every 10 seconds, TNTF gets a 70% reduction of damage and Death Blossom gives + 80 damage to all foes in the area
Farming is not balanced gameplay, being able to solo areas with 1/8th of the players usually needed tells us something about how balanced PvE really is. If PvE-ers want balance, this has to go. At the same time, most PvE-ers want more a bigger variety of professions to choose from, which means that A) either the holy trinity gets nerfed, or B) the unused professions get a huge buff, on spells that will have to promote gimmicks.
In PvE you are fighting with big baddies with +300 damage spells and +100 armor. You need some key elements, and some overpowered skills to use. If all the PvE skills were balanced, every team would be steamrolled against the extremely hard-skinned foes you are facing, several lvls above the team. In PvP, all the players armor, runes and skills are equal, that is why balance is so important.
I ask you then, do you think balancing PvE this will promote any good gameplay? Ritualists getting instakill spells, and monks stuck with mending? Wouldn't this just make the game a lot more dull? press skill 1, target dead. c-space, press skill 1 again, target dead.
The nerfs/buffs/balance that PvP provides us, gives us different builds to grapple with, and always new challenges when our builds get the bat, or when an old one gets revived. Is this such a bad thing when everything comes to an end?
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
Personally (remember I usually PvE) I think it is great how they set up the PvE. The only proffesion I really think got shafted was Paragons, they had such a good idea to them...
Also any PvEers that argue that a nerf is bad, (I may be killed for this) I LOVE NERFS I get to make all new builds and the little challenge make the game that much more fun!
Just a little reminder... This game won best gameply for PvP not pve, so what are they going to conciter first?
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RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
QUOTE
But let's just for a second assume that PvE actually became balanced, that A-net decided to try and balance the professions for PvE. Do you think that actually would be good for the game? Imagine the big nerfs that would come then:
The Death of Farming. The 55hp build, the geomancer, the vwk rit, they all get the shaft. From now on, all areas have to be entered with a full team
Monks, eles and warriors get nerfed, to balance them towards the other professions
Assassins, Ritualists, Paragons and Mesmers become hugely buffed. Energy surge now deals 200 damage every 10 seconds, TNTF gets a 70% reduction of damage and Death Blossom gives + 80 damage to all foes in the area
Farming is not balanced gameplay, being able to solo areas with 1/8th of the players usually needed tells us something about how balanced PvE really is. If PvE-ers want balance, this has to go. At the same time, most PvE-ers want more a bigger variety of professions to choose from, which means that A) either the holy trinity gets nerfed, or B) the unused professions get a huge buff, on spells that will have to promote gimmicks.
What do you consider balance in PvE?
It seems that you want to believe balance in PvE is making area's so difficult that it REQUIRES 8 people to go through them. Anet has never been against casual 1-person farming, not even constant 1-person farming, only bots that farm. Therefore even if they DID balance for PvE, farming would still be around. Infact, without farming, one of two things would happen. A) The economy would collapse even further. People would have no money to buy things, so prices would drop. B) The price of everything would rise once again because the supply is much lower, something anet is obviously against because they want everyone to be somewhat equivilent in there equipment, so its more skill-based.
The way I see it, balance PvE would be skills not wiping your entire party (in NORMAL mode), and those useless -in PvE- skills being buffed to be useful.
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
Im sorry i can't agree with: "Game is more PvP than PvE" im sorry...
I'll tell you why.
1. It probably took them 95% of their time to make prophecies/factions/nightfall Explorable Areas and Missions for PvE....and 5% of that time to make PvP Battle Isles.
2. EoTN is all PvE expansion.
If you combine all 4 Games Together, you'll obviously see 98% of guildwars's ground space is PvE based, yet the small 2% seems to be the battle isles map...hmmm...
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
QUOTE
Im sorry i can't agree with: "Game is more PvP than PvE" im sorry...
I'll tell you why.
1. It probably took them 95% of their time to make prophecies/factions/nightfall Explorable Areas and Missions for PvE....and 5% of that time to make PvP Battle Isles.
2. EoTN is all PvE expansion.
If you combine all 4 Games Together, you'll obviously see 98% of guildwars's ground space is PvE based, yet the small 2% seems to be the battle isles map...hmmm...
I said why skill balances will almost always be balanced around PvP. Reading comprehension is the key. What the game focuses on, was not part of the discussion here....
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
they cant nerf the 55 build anyway, i think they liked this build, because if they nerfed this, then it would nerf Mhenlo's build in the bison tournement.
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RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
QUOTE
Im sorry i can't agree with: "Game is more PvP than PvE" im sorry...
....
But still the game is called: "Guild Wars". Not: "Let's hunt some charrs and farm FoW + UW- Wars"...
So I think the game is ment to be more PvPish and that it's normal they balance the PvP meta more then the PvE stuff. Altho
it's often realy annoying when they nerf like 1 skill and because of that your whole build fails and you have to look for something totaly different. But mye it's a good thing to keep the game more exiting I guess.
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
QUOTE
QUOTE
Im sorry i can't agree with: "Game is more PvP than PvE" im sorry...
I'll tell you why.
1. It probably took them 95% of their time to make prophecies/factions/nightfall Explorable Areas and Missions for PvE....and 5% of that time to make PvP Battle Isles.
2. EoTN is all PvE expansion.
If you combine all 4 Games Together, you'll obviously see 98% of guildwars's ground space is PvE based, yet the small 2% seems to be the battle isles map...hmmm...
I said why skill balances will almost always be balanced around PvP. Reading comprehension is the key. What the game focuses on, was not part of the discussion here....
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
Seth you forgot to add the "DUN DUN DUN"
On topic:
I think that a majority of people hit the level cap and hit endgame content and then PvP because they get bored. So then the devs focus on the most popular part of the game, in many cases PvP so they then dont care if it nerfs some of the PvE because they are making the 'most' amount of people happy in their eyes. Blizzard and other companies have done the same thing in many cases.
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
QUOTE
Personally (remember I usually PvE) I think it is great how they set up the PvE. The only proffesion I really think got shafted was Paragons, they had such a good idea to them...
Para is actually still very effective with a tntf and save yourselves based build. The only proffesion i would say is bad in pve is mesmers they have generally been terrible from what i've seen.
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
QUOTE
Im sorry i can't agree with: "Game is more PvP than PvE" im sorry...
I'll tell you why.
1. It probably took them 95% of their time to make prophecies/factions/nightfall Explorable Areas and Missions for PvE....and 5% of that time to make PvP Battle Isles.
2. EoTN is all PvE expansion.
If you combine all 4 Games Together, you'll obviously see 98% of guildwars's ground space is PvE based, yet the small 2% seems to be the battle isles map...hmmm...
GW was created to be a PVP game and you notice that alot in Prophecies. The desert missions, the lack of a good storyline, the unlocking systems etc
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
you know...this could all be solved by one single thing
SEPERATING PVP AND PVE SKILL BALANCES
do not say this couldnt be done, there are threads upon threads showing simple coding that could be implimented into the game to cause this, its obious they can code pve/pvp differences for example every single pve skill becomes disabled when in pvp of any sort
as for the person before me....how does proph have a bad storyline, personally i think its one of the better storylines out of the 4
and as for your "Gimmick builds" there is not a single gimmick build that cant be beaten by a little thinking...rather than seeing a team of 6 sf eles and crying to a net to fix the problem for you
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
QUOTE
you know...this could all be solved by one single thing
SEPERATING PVP AND PVE SKILL BALANCES
do not say this couldnt be done, there are threads upon threads showing simple coding that could be implimented into the game to cause this, its obious they can code pve/pvp differences for example every single pve skill becomes disabled when in pvp of any sort
as for the person before me....how does proph have a bad storyline, personally i think its one of the better storylines out of the 4
and as for your "Gimmick builds" there is not a single gimmick build that cant be beaten by a little thinking...rather than seeing a team of 6 sf eles and crying to a net to fix the problem for you
By bad storyline I mean, alot of different stories that didn't seem to end. And yes gimmicks can be beaten but do you know how boring it is to face spiritway after spiritway after spiritway after spiritway? It is not us that needs to "think a little" it is those who run the gimmicks who needs to think alot.
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
put rez signet to bear skills inside ursanwai, the game will be coolerzordz. this wai yu'l dun hav tu change from t3h urza to noobzord monk that can heal 'n protect alliez, juzt to rez sum1, and won't be able to bear with dealing dmg yo!
i mean c'mon... it's pvp focused game, full stop.... some people will never learn ;/
wyat did write lots of wisdom up there, for stricte PvE aspects a balance means more skills that give advantage/makes you equal to mobs that have higher number, higher lvl's, higher attribute stats, hp, armor, whatever. balance upwards for human players vs ai.
PvP = balance skill that it's not one hit killer, no cookie cutters, no button victory, blah.
duh i agree with statement 'if you don't like the skill, don't use it', but it still makes my eyes bleed when i see what happens with all those high-end, hard to complete areas with ursanway... they should make them be able to solo the place, why share the goldie drops.... *sigh*.
btw. imho, the BALANCE means that there's place for every class in the party. It's not 2mo+2e+1w+1n+2x in every place, well yeah it's cool, but some areas might involve 'hey let's look on that class skills, they might save our butts there!' 'w00tzords let's make magic', balance is using the abilities of primary class and combining it with abilities of secondary class to make you either all round dude (that's a no no, actually...) or to make you a perfectionist in one thing.
Balance? that's not making all people hardcore full party areas, it's more fun like that for sure, but balance means giving the tools, it's up to your skills and imagination how you'll use it. I really don't think they thought of making a 55 monk at very first when the game was released, someone noticed some facts, combined em together and poof! it's magic! woot...
That is balance, balance in tools.
Some tools are broken in PvE, some are broken in PvP, it's just like that, both require different gameplay and focus.
PvP focused game, won't get stressed that much on PvE, yes, really.
Edit:
WE DON'T WANT URSAN NERF!!
BUFF IT INSTEAD AND WIPE THE REMAINING SKILLZ!!!!
WHO CARES BOUT EM!!!
URSAN = PERFECT BAlANCE OF PVE!!
MAKE IT PVP SKILL ASWELL!!!!11111111
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
Wow I missed this topic somehow.
I'm not here to flame or make fun of the game to be called, it just is.
If you want to PvE ... go play World of Warcraft. There I said it.
Guild Wars is high end PvP. Just think of the Tournaments and cash prizes to be won with GvG.
Ofcourse most ppl in GW play PvE, I myself play PvE when I'm not doing HA or GvG. I enjoy some good ol' PvE, but I don't see why ppl complain about nerfs, the EW nerf for instance, all UW trappers complained, "Anet doesn't like us", it was all PvP.
I can't even remember 1 skill nerf to be for PvE that would then affect PvP.
This might sound harsh, but PvE players have just got to learn to live with, what matters it to you that they nerf LoD or EW, or whatever. It matters to most PvPers to balance out GvG and HA so no lame farmbuilds can overrule us. If people make easy farm builds the game would just be to easy and die, bybye GW for most PvP players (already happened few times).
Builds like IWAY, which is lame and imo the only build that deserves a nerf ("Fear Me"), require no brain to win Halls. Wth? What happened to serious gameplay? For most exp players IWAY is easy fame. But not for newer players who get owned and give up.
In GvG the famous SoG with Bloodspike, farming Champion points to then join high end PvP and mess it up. (Thanks for OG nerf)
I can type a whole book about PvP - PvE nerfs, but I hope I made my point.
Skill balance is there to make PvP balanced, it still is a PvP game, nobody can deny that. PvE suffers under it, yes, I to hate the LoD nerf for my heroes, but learn to live with it.
I think every day that maybe today is the last time I ever use a particular skill because it is so good and they might nerf it, I'm not mad, I'll go find something else, both my 90% PvP and 10% PvE.
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
Well, I guess I'll jump in and add my two cents to this discussion.
I agree partly with both sides of the fence, and I think that the simplest solution would be to seperate PvE and PvP skills, so that a nerf / buff of one side wouldn't change the metagame for the other side.
What I would like to say, to people who say that Guild Wars is a PvP game, when it came out, Arena Net classified Guild Wars as a CORPG, a Co-operative Online Role Playing Game. To me, that sounds like it was designed as a PvE based game, and I think that Prophecies was a richly done environment, and I think most fondly of the days before Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North. The PvE story was gripping, I couldn't wait to finish the game to see how the story unfolded.
I'm not saying anything against PvP, it hasn't traditionally been my style of play, I like developing my characters, and aquiring skills for them, and trying out different templates. (I love the 8 skill only bar, as opposed to WoW, you need to think of your build carefully), and the level cap as well.
Anyway, I could go on, but I won't bore you further, just my thoughts on a game that's supposed to be a CORPG.
Oh yeah, I'm not bashing PvP, I think it's definately part of the game, and for those that enjoy it, go kill other people. I'll be out there killing computer controlled pixels :-)
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
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Also any PvEers that argue that a nerf is bad, (I may be killed for this) I LOVE NERFS I get to make all new builds and the little challenge makes the game that much more fun!
...Wow. You are possibly the most optimistic person I've ever met.
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RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
I agree 100% with your assessment, but I do think you missed one major factor in why PvP drives balancing:
Tournaments involve real money from cash and item prizes.
This poster hasn't been 55ing very long:
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they cant nerf the 55 build anyway, i think they liked this build, because if they nerfed this, then it would nerf Mhenlo's build in the bison tournement.
Besides myself does anyone remember the first "death" of the 55er in UW - The nerf of protective bond? The number of monks in game dropped by 50% overnight! (For the people that haven't been around long enough, this happened August 25, 2005.)
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
Woohooo!!! Thats my quote. LOL
I see your point on this. I, myself and a pve'r but I have never cared about skill changes/balances for the most part. One or two have made me scratch my head like pets not leaving exploitable corpses, but other then that no problem.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
I agree to this topic completely. GW is more of a PvP based game rather than a PvE game, as for the person saying that 95 % was all PvE and the other 5% was PvP, well yeah OK sure but what are they focusing on constantly?? You've got to remember that PvP is rather simple you just need maps, that's pretty easy to do PvE you add NPCS VAST maps ofc outposts, quests, so on so forth. What I'm trying to get at is they've done their 95% on the PvE side, and the 5% in making it but now they're more focused on PvP so....most of the time is PvP based in the long run.
Also in my honest opinion to balance PvE you should just wave good bye to ursan way......VOILA more skill required! and it makes it more PvP friendly, for instance I never PvE and I don't even have 1 ursan skill let alone the title.......yet they're all ways looking for ursans......HHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMM?
RE: Why the game almost always will be balanced around PvP, and not PvE
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It has and always will be balanced around PvP. Anyone who disagrees with that statement is basically kidding themselves.
Yes it is true. But, (im gonna get smooshed for this) with skills like Ursan around PvE will never see balance. They could have made 2 separate skill sets. One for PvP and one for PvE. Add a trigger that would remove PvE Skills when you enter a PvP area and vice versa. But, of course were talking about anet. Might be 'too much work' for them seeing as they always find an easy way rather than TRY to satisfy everyone.
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