GameAmp: Hero builder and such

Forum >> Main >> General Discussion >> Hero builder and such

User

Message

Phedre_D

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 472
Joined: 05/09/2005
Credibility: 26 pts

Hero builder and such

This is not to discredit Aurrius or Warron Peace or any of the other build guru's, but I do want to say I so dislike posts with the hero builder data sheets in them.

When I see one of them I am immediately done talking. They are too efficient, and at the same time a bit hard to read. Threads with them in it often die instantly, because nobody can really argue with numbers.

Once upon a time we had lovely lenghty threads where we all argumented our favourite powers, and based on those I have picked up several new powers/ideas I had not thought of yet. But unfortuantely those days are gone now. Maybe I should you go with the program, but I had to get this off my chest.

11/22/07 05:37

Aurrius

Posts: 31
Joined: 06/11/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

My apologies, Phedre. I was merely doing what people asked of me (and others, of course).

@Aurrius | Paragon/Rogue Knights | Union

11/22/07 09:09

Phedre_D

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 472
Joined: 05/09/2005
Credibility: 26 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

I know, and no need to apologize! It is not at all meant as an accusation on your valuable builder skills, but probably more on my inability to read them proper. I think I was just wondering if it is just me, or a sign of the times.

I think it is a bit the same as with the AmpGW and AmpWOW sites. Since we have them the forum traffic is a lot less on those sites. They are THE perfect tools to get info, but they leave forum junkies like me a bit stranded :)

The GameAmp Noobz Household!

11/22/07 09:18

Cr3ss3nt

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 11
Joined: 08/04/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

I agree with you Phe. But, they get the job done. I enjoy efficiency.

Super Smash Bros. Brawl Code: 4468-0698-2171
Guitar Hero Code: 524106631288
Brawl: Snake / Guitar Hero III: Johnny Napalm + Jimi Hendrix Flying V

CoX Global: @Cr3ss3nt1
WoW Server: Burning Legion(Horde) Zul'Jin(Alliance)
***THIS POST HAS BEEN CR3SSIFIED***

11/22/07 09:50

lani

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 627
Joined: 09/08/2005
Credibility: 28 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

I'm with you completely Phe. I'll go even further.

The moment I see one of those copy paste jobs I stop reading the thread. It's not just that they're really not set up for easy reading (I hope the program the stuff gets copied from is a bit better in that department), but I've always felt that playing RPG's be it Pen and Paper, computer game or Massive Mulitiplayer Online, is about playing a character and not the numbers. I understand that people think differently on that score. I also understand that the folks psoting these are trying to be helpful, and probably are in a way. But it does stiffle discussion, and thereby thinking about- looking at things from more than one angle.

The few times I read on when encountering one of those Hero Builder paste jobs I noticed it is just numbers. No strategy, no how-to-use-this-in-a-group-or-solo and most often they're L50 Builds. Thank you but I actually don't want to have what I consider the end of the road worked out to me through some basic calculator and a VB . I want to puzzle things out on my own. Take my own roads, which may or may not lead to the same destination.

Discussions on boards help with that. These pre-fab builds make me look for the auto=play button and really don't give you a sense of why they are better. Reading about folks' stratagems, how to have fun with "unsuited" group builds, other things that are really not practical but cool nonetheless and what is the nasties foes discussions. That's what I like, not pre-chewed solutions.

11/22/07 10:28

midnight guard

Posts: 0
Joined: 03/19/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

I understand you guys viewpoints, and I agree with them. The thing that the Hero Builder 'maps' do, is that it narrows the threads discussion down to a very few people, whereas only those who completely understand the build can comment in the thread.

They're very helpful if you actually take time to look at them (i.e., it's your char's build), but most will want to stay at the sideline, and give good tips and hints, instead of getting all mathematic.

I'm in Japan for the time being - Check my blog!

(Europe) - Defiant & Union - @Midnight Guard
Villains:
Midnight Guard - Level 50 Dark Melee / Dark Armor / Soul Mastery Brute. [Defiant]
Flammenklinge - Level 50 Fire Melee / Invulnerability / Mu Mastery Brute. [Defiant]
Zenodorus - Level 50 Crab Spider Soldier / Crab Spider Training / Mace Mastery Arachnos Soldier. [Union]
Battler - Level 41 Battle Axe / Willpower / Mace Mastery Brute. [Union]
Karokage - Level 36 Ninjas / Dark Miasma Mastermind. [Defiant]
Midnight Phantom - Level 35 Martial Arts / Ninjutsu Stalker. [Union]
Darkspire - Level 43 Dual Blades / Willpower Brute. [Defiant]

Heroes:
Choshu - Level 50 Katana / Super Reflexes / Body Mastery Scrapper. [Defiant]
Ex Nihilo - Level 50 Umbral Blast / Umbral Aura Warshade. [Union]
Chihaji - Level 42 Radiation Emission / Electric Blast / Psychic Mastery Defender. [Union]
Szakuri - Level 41 Claws / Regeneration / Body Mastery Scrapper. [Union]
Holly Good - Level 35 Empathy / Psychic Blast Defender. [Defiant]
Scintillatus - Level 33 Fire Blast / Mental Manipulation Blaster. [Union]
Otonashi - Level 33 Martial Arts / Regeneration Scrapper. [Union]

Currently playing:
- - -
Currently listening to:
- - -

11/22/07 11:36

Mzzkc

Posts: 1
Joined: 01/12/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

QUOTE

(I hope the program the stuff gets copied from is a bit better in that department)

Yeppers. It's got pretty pictures and everything!

QUOTE

I understand that people think differently on that score. I also understand that the folks psoting these are trying to be helpful, and probably are in a way. But it does stiffle discussion, and thereby thinking about- looking at things from more than one angle.

Ah, but there is always more than one way to approach a build. When someone posts a build to help someone out it's never the best build. A build is only as good as the player using it and therefore builds must be tailored to a persons playstyle. It's true that some things just shouldn't be done, but overall any build is viable (if not the best it can be) in the right hands.

QUOTE

The few times I read on when encountering one of those Hero Builder paste jobs I noticed it is just numbers. No strategy, no how-to-use-this-in-a-group-or-solo and most often they're L50 Builds. Thank you but I actually don't want to have what I consider the end of the road worked out to me through some basic calculator and a VB . I want to puzzle things out on my own. Take my own roads, which may or may not lead to the same destination.

I am in complete agreement. I always see "Final" builds as rough drafts that I can edit later on if I need to. They are in no way set in stone. To me they are just general guidelines that helps speed up the leveling process so you don't spend 20 minutes deciding what power to take.

QUOTE

Discussions on boards help with that. These pre-fab builds make me look for the auto=play button and really don't give you a sense of why they are better. Reading about folks' stratagems, how to have fun with "unsuited" group builds, other things that are really not practical but cool nonetheless and what is the nasties foes discussions. That's what I like, not pre-chewed solutions.

Yes. It is unfortunate that many of those discussions don't turn in that direction. However, you can't blame anyone but yourself for not starting those discussions in those threads. If you like those discussions so much you should go out of your way to ask "why did you take this" and "what is that used for". I present this challenge to you and anyone else who feels that way. You have more power to change things than you're giving yourself credit for.

Just my two cents anyways.

=P

Edit:

QUOTE

They're very helpful if you actually take time to look at them (i.e., it's your char's build), but most will want to stay at the sideline, and give good tips and hints, instead of getting all mathematic.

But, I liek teh mathz!

Also: So, I herd u liek mudkipz.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Silence is golden. Duct tape is silver.

Click Below for an Explosion!

11/22/07 19:24

Creepy Joe Deadly

Posts: 7
Joined: 11/18/2007
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

why worry about what the "perfect" build is. I agree, everyone plays differntly. I wonder how many people realize how to play the character they get from somebody else's experience end up dissatisfied with the game simply because they don't know how to play the character like the person who originally built it. Plus the fact of no personal discovery, makes it not as fun to play.

*whew*

11/23/07 02:25

pathofwrath

Posts: 1
Joined: 06/02/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

I use a hero planner as just that: a planner. I build a toon in it, trying to see when I should take certain powers and how to slot certain powers. It's very helpful for me, especially when I'm trying a powerset I haven't used before. I also frequently alter my planned build as I play. If I find myself teaming more, I'll take that more team-friendly power that I was going to skip otherwise. Or I'll pick up a power earlier or later depending on my playing.

If the various hero planners bother you, than be grateful that no one is making you use them.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Path of Wrath - Storm/Elec/Elec Defender - 50
Miss Trinidad - Ill/Storm/Ice Controller - 50
Miss Cote d'Ivoire - Dark/Regen/Dark Scrapper - 50
Posey Punk - Grav/Kin/Stone Controller - 50
Mr. Azerbaijan - Kin/Psy Defender - 50
Laccolith - Earth/Rad Controller - 35
Geriatric Justice - Willpower/SS Tanker - 38

11/23/07 11:27

Creepy Joe Deadly

Posts: 7
Joined: 11/18/2007
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

I've seen the posts left by the hero builders but never seen the builders. I'm curios as to how they work and where I can find them. It's something new to me.

11/23/07 13:08

Aurrius

Posts: 31
Joined: 06/11/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

Here you go. This is Mids' Hero Designer, one of the best (if not the best) hero builders out there. It's easy to use, has tons of data and is just plain awesome. It's also the one I use for professional hero-building on my SG forums (I'm known as Bob the Builder <_< ).

@Aurrius | Paragon/Rogue Knights | Union

11/23/07 13:43

Sapir

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 54
Joined: 10/07/2005
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

I go with Phe. The HeroBuilder posts leave me cold because as has been stated even by pro-Builder posters; they are a design tool and not necessarily the 'Best' build. "Statistically Superior" perhaps (Remember: There are three kinds of lies - Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics), but a Ferrari in the hands of a 10 year old is only a weapon, not a fine automobile.

My lil Builds may not be statistically superior, but I rock solo and roll with my homies successfully. Now my MasterMind is just plain sick, but I have yet to see anyone else play as I do. If there is ever a Heroes MasterMind; I've already built him, and he kicks serious tail.

I guess if I was into PvP I might worry the Stats, but I'm not. Then maybe having Respecs to burn and not using a single one on some toons all the way to 50 allows me some leeway. I really enjoy taking my time with a Level Up and putting the thought into the build as I progress during the game so that if I team more or not at all, I build appropriately. It takes different strokes to rule the world.

Dont hate me because I'm COLORFUL.
Remember Kids: There is NO defense against WEIRD! Flames may come, and flames may go, but WEIRD is Eternal!

11/24/07 01:43

lani

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 627
Joined: 09/08/2005
Credibility: 28 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

I think my initial post on this topic was a bit too obscure, and caused some kind souls to feel attacked / react defensive.
SO, here's attempt two at why I feel that pre-fab Builds, especially ones through a tool such as hero Builder, don't "fit" within the format of a Forum.

There's Information and there's Knowledge.
Ideally, the former leads to the latter, most commonly through an interactive process, such as discussion.
It's the difference between giving a man a fish to feed him for a day or setting him on f... No, that's not right. Ahm... Oh right. Feeding him for a day, or teaching him to fish so he can fed himself for the rest of his life. Now, in my interpretation the Hero Builder Builds fall under the category Information rather than Knowledge.

Let me use an example to make my point though:
The other day, I was in a group as a young Villain of 12 security levels. The group also contained someone playing the game for the very first time. Someone who was 'riding' an elder brother's account to get to know the game. Said person didn't understand such basic concepts as Enhancements, the compass and how to navigate cities. He also seemed to be somewhat obsessed with attaining a Jet-Pack. Now, within the group there were two approaches to this person. Actually three, but the "Just kick the stupid noob" option is not relevant here. The first approach was to tell him to stay put, go to the next mission, teleport him there and get going. This was certainly the most easy for us. The second approach was to attempt to create some understanding to our Newbie by explaining things and showing examples. Taking it a step at a time. This latter approach was a bit hampered by the Jet-Pack fixation to be honest.
In the end the "Kick the Noob" approach won out when said Newbie ignored repeated requests to leave a certain glowie alone and threw a mission for the team.

Back to information vs Knowledge. This Newbie would benefit most from understanding. Mind you, he was showing real signs of Noobishness as well (an inability or unwillingness to learn from experience/example). Information, Teleporting someone to mission point and telling him to check his Map for comparative locations, in itself doesn't always fit the bill there. The step-by step "let me do the thinking for you my friend" approach of handing someone a road-map for each level from 1 to 50 is exactly the same approach as that teleporting to the Mission entrance though. Our Newb wasn't learning how to travel from A to B from being Teleported from A to B. He was also given basic information on how to achieve his Jet-Pack. "You do a set number of newspaper Missions for a contact and then you get to do a Mayhem mission which gets you your temporary travel power". Absolutely correct information. However, it did not provide the newb with the Knowledge of how to gain a Jet-Pack.

Information by it's very nature tends to be non-interactive. Achieving knowledge or understanding might be a better term, is an interactive process. Information is part of that. I might as well take a moment here to point out that the original argument of this discussion was that the Hero Builder Builds stifle discussion. A rebuttal that we should discuss them is a bit too easy for my taste. "Blame" really has no place here either. There was no attempt to lay blame in the original topic so lets keep that ugly word out of it form now on. So, back to why Pre-fab Builds in Forums are non conductive to discussions which most of us like and consider the essence of forums. The Pre-fab Builds stifle discussion as there's little means to argue statistics with except statistics, which often misses the point.
They're presented as a solution to a quandary. However, a whole lot of strategy is not translatable to statistics. It's how and when you apply those statistical abilities that matters. Yet the Statistics are presented as a solution.

Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is understanding (of information/knowledge) in the mind of the recipient. To some (read a select few) the pasted output of Her Builder will be beneficial in a Knowledge imparting manner, to others it's just googlygoog numbers. Saying the last makes you look stupid though. Another way these Builds stifle discussion. They're pretty overwhelming when you're a Newbie.
For me, forums are more suited for taking someone by the hand and explaining things step by step. Taking people along on the journey. Not handing out road maps. Like the newb in the example would have benefited from a kind soul jogging along with him from A to B, pointing out landmarks and stimulating him to think rather than spoon feed him information he's not (equipped to) process(ing).

In closing, I don't think Hero Builder Builds are "bad" or not useful. There's tons of situations / formats where they fit. I also firmly believe that the people providing these Builds, do so with the best of intentions and aren't "lazy" about it like the "Teleport to Mission entry" people in my example were. The folks who provide them, spend time to work out the build, kudos for that. Sincerely. And, if someone wants a Good Working Build with a minimum of fuss, they fit perfectly. I just feel that forums aren't the channel for it. I've been focusing on imparting knowledge and understanding on newbies, and often these Builds are provided for people who long since went beyond that status. So often, there's no (new) knowledge to be imparted and understanding is achievable by the recipient without further explanations. However, those feel more suited to Information sources like Wikipedia or even an "Am I hot or not?" site-format. For Builds rather than photoshopped mughsots :-)

A bit more human-readable lay-out would also be beneficial I argue, but then again those non-forum formats already provide that. So a link to a Build on a "Is my Build hot or not?" site (or one of the wiki model sites) with a paragraph or two on why the Build rocks, is more suited to forums than the copy paste output. Especially the Hexadecimal output. software-input really, really has no place on a forum for me. I don't care that there's a human-readable version provided in the same post. Hex-code just doesn't belong in an MMOG forum. Gameamp provides the Information Model for builds through submitable Guides and Articles. It's a bit unwieldy sometimes, I admit, due to the approval process and, unless a Build is accompanied by something besides statistics, the tendency to be refused as not meeting the minimal requirements this can be somewhat unwieldy and more time-consuming than the quick copy-paste from Builder output. A special Build section (maybe with parsing for Hero Builder output so the site can do the lay-outing?) would be very nice I guess. Doubtful we'd get that with Devs having limited resources and all.

Cheers.

P.s. Hi! I'm Lani, I write long posts :-)

Edit; Inevitable spotting of a typo 0.0001 sec after hitting submit button.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

11/24/07 05:24

Sapir

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 54
Joined: 10/07/2005
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

QUOTE

yada yada "kick the stupid n00b" yada yada statistics yada yada Builder's data yada yada no place in a Forum yada cetera yada cetera

I think I editted it down to the salient points for quotational brevity, Lani. And I believe you are correct. So, Phedre this is The Beloved Lani in whom you are well pleased, correct?

I enjoyed your thoughts and thoroughness, Lani. Glad to have you talking over here too now. It's about time we got a little class and culture in this Roguish Site.

Now youse mooks lissen ta da shiney one, y'hear! Or I'sll hafta clobber ya! Capische?

Keep it up, Lan, and a pleasure to make your aquaintenance!

QUOTE

Cheers.

PS ~ I am Sapir, and I write weird posts.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Dont hate me because I'm COLORFUL.
Remember Kids: There is NO defense against WEIRD! Flames may come, and flames may go, but WEIRD is Eternal!

11/24/07 11:39

midnight guard

Posts: 0
Joined: 03/19/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

QUOTE

PS ~ I am Sapir, and I write weird posts.

Unedited for inaccuracy.

P.S., bump?

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Currently playing:
- - -
Currently listening to:
- - -

11/24/07 16:39

Mzzkc

Posts: 1
Joined: 01/12/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

QUOTE

PS ~ I am Sapir, and I write weird posts.

Unedited for inaccuracy.

P.S., bump?

Woah. . .

Duuuude. My mind just got blowed.

PS - I would write a PS too, but I'm too lazy.

Silence is golden. Duct tape is silver.

Click Below for an Explosion!

11/24/07 18:34

Aurrius

Posts: 31
Joined: 06/11/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

I guess it's obvious everyone here hates builds, and thus I'll stop making them. Gotta go with the flow, eh?

@Aurrius | Paragon/Rogue Knights | Union

11/25/07 02:45

Sapir

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 54
Joined: 10/07/2005
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

Nope. Not at all. Builds are fine. They are just another way of suggesting possible Powersets, Pools, slotting, etc. Nothing against them (except here on Villainside I cant read the dark numbers/background and such). I may not necesarily 'stick' with any one suggested slotting or build, but it does give me some ideas. I took what has been touted as an excellent build for a Blapper once, and since it fit my Blaster's Primary and Secondary I took it and tweaked it to my way of thinking how a Blapper, MY Blapper, should operate. I love her as much as when she was a pure Blaster.

StatsHounds and Philosophers can both dwell happily in the light (or dark as the case may be). So, keep the Builds coming. Any information that is helpful is good information, and at the very least it is a starting point for a discussion that both sides of the Builder can join in on if they so please.

Plus I do not believe that Phedre or anyone else (even myself) are against the Builders or those who use them. Some of us are just not statistically inclined to get that deep into the game mechanics. I mean, if I only wanted the numbers (Brawl Index, Chance To Hit, etc) I could play the game with some dice and a calculator like AD&D. Some want exact data while others wish to maintain the illusion that the chance to hit and damage done per blow is random or due to skill in using their powers. Sure, I know it's not exactly like that, but I can even live without the HP bars and the damage numbers floating above an enemy's head. To each their own, but dont take it as a lack of interest in your skills at making, or posting of Builds.

Dont hate me because I'm COLORFUL.
Remember Kids: There is NO defense against WEIRD! Flames may come, and flames may go, but WEIRD is Eternal!

11/25/07 03:51

Phedre_D

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 472
Joined: 05/09/2005
Credibility: 26 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

QUOTE

I guess it's obvious everyone here hates builds, and thus I'll stop making them. Gotta go with the flow, eh?

Although Sapir mostly said it already, let me repeat it too. Please don't stop making them and posting them when people ask for it. Even if some of us don't ask for them, that doesn't mean that goes for the entire community. Most of the folks in this thread are very outspoken (and some even extremely lenghty ouspoken ;>), but they are also mostly the forum chatters and RPGers. I am sure your builds are loved by many quiet lurkers.

As Mzzkc suggested we should just argue your builds more. I took them too much as law. From now on start seeing me give objections to your numb3rs.

The GameAmp Noobz Household!

11/25/07 05:01

Aurrius

Posts: 31
Joined: 06/11/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

QUOTE

(except here on Villainside I cant read the dark numbers/background and such)

I use pink, so I doubt you can't read that.

And meh, I'll continue building then.

@Aurrius | Paragon/Rogue Knights | Union

11/25/07 11:05

Warron Peace

Posts: 0
Joined: 06/06/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

I'll keep tossing builds up, because that is how I provide info to people who ask for it. Instead of berating the build because its prefab and copy/pasted, try looking at the build, either by copying it over into your own version of the builder, or at least looking over the builds as they are posted up.

I think what may be confusing you the most is the shortened names of the Invention sets used. My most recently posted build (heroside, stone/ss tanker) was built with SOs in mind, so thats how I slotted it in the build. The result is a somewhat easier to read build. In the future, I'll try to focus on slotting with SOs, and add that if someone wants Invention builds, they only have to ask, and I'll either post one up, or PM it to them. This may make it easier for people less acquainted with the builder to understand what the jumble of numbers actually means.

I also want to add that if you take the time to look at the build as its put up, you can use that information to suggest changes in when powers are taken, or when they are slotted, or give any other advice/criticism you may have in mind. If you happen to know the powerset, you can give advice from the experienced point of view on how to use such-and-such a power and when.

What I'm trying to say is don't take one of mine, Aurrius', or anyone elses builds as set in stone, nothing better. Give us your advice and criticism, and we may just be able to plug your experiences into making an even better build for the person asking. The more communication going around the forums, the better the builds will be, both as they are posted, and as they are built in the game.

W.P.

11/25/07 12:29

Aurrius

Posts: 31
Joined: 06/11/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

QUOTE

I think what may be confusing you the most is the shortened names of the Invention sets used. My most recently posted build (heroside, stone/ss tanker) was built with SOs in mind, so thats how I slotted it in the build. The result is a somewhat easier to read build. In the future, I'll try to focus on slotting with SOs, and add that if someone wants Invention builds, they only have to ask, and I'll either post one up, or PM it to them. This may make it easier for people less acquainted with the builder to understand what the jumble of numbers actually means.

That's what I always do, provide SO builds unless people specifically ask for something different. It's also the easiest for me ;)

QUOTE

What I'm trying to say is don't take one of mine, Aurrius', or anyone elses builds as set in stone, nothing better.

Amen. Builds I provide (can't speak for you or anyone else, of course) are only guidelines as two how I would build that toon, or what I think should work well.

@Aurrius | Paragon/Rogue Knights | Union

11/25/07 13:37

Cr3ss3nt

GameAmp Staff
Posts: 11
Joined: 08/04/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Hero builder and such

I like seeing your builds, but I don't use them, or read them really. I only play to have fun, and to make my character look and play cool. It makes the game distinctive from WoW, GW, and Lineage. Where you don't have to be paranoid about stats and stuff.

Cr3

P.s. Phe, your avatar is awesome. =]

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Super Smash Bros. Brawl Code: 4468-0698-2171
Guitar Hero Code: 524106631288
Brawl: Snake / Guitar Hero III: Johnny Napalm + Jimi Hendrix Flying V

CoX Global: @Cr3ss3nt1
WoW Server: Burning Legion(Horde) Zul'Jin(Alliance)
***THIS POST HAS BEEN CR3SSIFIED***

11/25/07 17:36

Don't Forget! - Rate users posts to reward or demerit their posts with Credibility!