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pyro master

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choking cloud question

ok, i havent used our free respecs from fiday, and was thinking about getting choking cloud again with my controller. the questions i have is this: will set bonuses, radiation infection, or hold set enhancements with +acc in them, add to the amount that choking cloud can hit the enemies? i kno that choking cloud cannot have accuracy enhancements on it normally, which is why i am asking if these other ways can add to its accuracy.

12/08/07 08:23

BigChill

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RE: choking cloud question

Okay, I ain't to sure, but if the power itself cannot have accuracy enhancements in it, it porbably won't benifit from IO accuracy sets. The only way I can think of to enhance its odds of hitting would be with To Hit Buffs, like Tactics, and as such, with IO To Hit Buff sets.

But I havn't spent much time with those kinds of troller powers, my specialty is with unpopular, uncommon, specialized playstyles. I supose instead of grabbing Permafrost at 49, I could get Ice Storm and see what happens. However if I do this, you'd have to wait 2 more levels, and probably another month for my answer. So, sorry, I can only really guess at this one, but it seems to make sense.

Big Chill is a conscranker: he conrols a mob so they do nothing, scraps a target till they can't stand, and tanks what's left till the job's done.

Dive in, have fun, and think about it later.

12/08/07 11:34

lani

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RE: choking cloud question

Sorry to hi-jack this thread for this, but i've been meaning to ask / find out something for ages and I never do.

What's really the difference between ToHit Buffs and Accuracy Buffs? I think the ToHit is what fails when something is deflected rather than missed straight out, but I'm not sure.

12/08/07 11:43

BigChill

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RE: choking cloud question

Okay, all attacks have an inherit 'acccuracy' and all player have an inherit chance 'to hit'. The buff is to just affect the odds of either of those occuring. Accuracy plays with defense. Not really related, but its like damage relating to resistance. To hit buffs however, ignore the regular defense rating and plays specifically with the player's total chance to hit. That plays into the dev's total acc and def caps, how exactly, I'm not too sure about. Sorry, I've got some know-how, but not everything.

Its like my Freezing Touch, it has an acc of 80% +95% acc buf, giving me a ~156%, really good for most anything, but some opponents like Fake Nemisis have their own def (and res) that counters that. Tactics' 7% + 95% to hit buf gives me a ~13% chance to hit regardless of that def rating.
I think some AoE and location powers don't have accuracy in it because, theoretically, they already have a perfect chance to hit in that area.

All said, accurace has higher levels, and comparably better values, but To Hit ignores the def that counters acc and thus can increace the chances to hit higher than acc (IMO, best used together, max acc powers + max to hit like Tactics). Hope this helps, somewhat.

Big Chill is a conscranker: he conrols a mob so they do nothing, scraps a target till they can't stand, and tanks what's left till the job's done.

Dive in, have fun, and think about it later.

12/08/07 12:07

lani

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RE: choking cloud question

Ok, I'm thinking in terms of rolls, as in any RPG.

Is it two rolls? One on Accuracy and one on ToHit?
or is Accuracy more part of + and - bonusses to the final single roll of ToHit?

For comparison, the Warhammer tabletop system (2nd rev for you youngsters) had you roll for twice, once for ToHit, ToWound and gave the defending party a roll to use his armor class even.

other systems have you roll "against" the opponents defense rating. And in some systems you'd have to do pre-calculations on those. Sounds to me like CoX might be one of them.

Grrrr. This proxy won't let me read my PM's. Too much data to encrypt I guess. 3 years without ever cleaning up my PM box did make it big :-)

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

12/08/07 12:36

BigChill

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RE: choking cloud question

QUOTE

To the best of what I know CoX uses some form of 'roll' system with those percentages to determine those odds. But the percentages are in essense the rolls themselves. Thinking of it that way, yes, it kind of works out in that manner. Player gets acc roll, opponent gets def roll, and player add to hit roll last to determine if it lands. Best value wins. If you understand it better this way, it also works like this for PvE opponents as well, they also have their own acc and to hit values. Its part of the game mechanics in how it runs, to 'balance' it. I remember a huge problem back in i7 (I think) where the devs really nerfed monsters and AVs so that they were unbeatable because of their regen values (kinda not related, but it comes to mind).

Edit:

I should've added this.

To Hits play a bit differently too, where acc is checked against def, to hit doesnt. To Hits kinda adds up on accuracy to determine if it lands. However if the defense can flat-out bead accurancy, the to hit value is counted as the flat chance for the power to land. That is also why to hit values are lower than accuracey. It is a way to guearentee that there is a chance for it to land. It can't be too much, or nobody would ever miss.

The rationale for my order of rolls (player acc, opponent def, player to hit) is that the main counts are accuracy and defense, to hit doesn't come into play till after their values are compared.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Big Chill is a conscranker: he conrols a mob so they do nothing, scraps a target till they can't stand, and tanks what's left till the job's done.

Dive in, have fun, and think about it later.

12/08/07 12:46

BigChill

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RE: choking cloud question

Oh, and those deflected, evaded, misses are just the related 'how that didn't land' kind of justification. It may relate to how it misses, but it doesn't play any specific part in how. Other than to just inform the players what happened. This is a cartoonish hero game after all, the only real things we are mission are the fancy letter splashes when we land or miss hits and sophisticated bubbles when we talk.

Well, that PM problem explains why I couldn't just PM my answers to you.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Big Chill is a conscranker: he conrols a mob so they do nothing, scraps a target till they can't stand, and tanks what's left till the job's done.

Dive in, have fun, and think about it later.

12/08/07 12:51

Darkest Medicine

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RE: choking cloud question

One thing I strongly suggest to add to choking cloud, since you can't add accuracy, is to increase the hold time. three of these slotted could end up holding a whole group at the same time.

For added fun run with two or more trollers with this power. My SG has three (soon to be four) of us with this and when there were three of us, we hardly got hit. It's hilarious seeing everyone either blind, choking or frozen.

12/08/07 13:35

lani

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RE: choking cloud question

QUOTE

The rationale for my order of rolls (player acc, opponent def, player to hit) is that the main counts are accuracy and defense, to hit doesn't come into play till after their values are compared.

That's what's puzzling me i think. There should be a second defense something really.

It's a 2 roll system I think.
First is active defense, second passive.
ACC vs Def & ToHit vs AC

First Accuracy & Defense: Either it's a compare Accuracy & Defense and roll against a comparative difficulty rating, or each gets to roll and who gets the best roll wins. This is aiming vs dodging or Luck.

Second would be the ToHit versus "Something". Which is mostly Attacker's Luck vs Defender's Armor Class (deflection for example would be this). I would be highly surprised if the same system isn't used for both PvE and PvP.

Is Luck a statistic?

Oh and I'd rather you publicly answer a public question in stead of in Private Message. :-) Half the fun of this is that people can butt in and that's hard to do in PM's.

Lengthening the hold in 'Cloud seems like a good idea. The thing pulses every 2 seconds. Two shots of 60% chance are better than one at 70% I believe.

12/08/07 13:45

BigChill

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RE: choking cloud question

Well, there is the base acc in a power, and def in powers. There is also that base chance to hit value that goes against the target. The target is that other 'value' I guess. As best as I can figure, acc checks vs defense, while to hit is just the basic chance to hit increace. I'm not too sure about the whole dice comparison though. Its been years since I tried my hand at BattleTech. But hey, hope this is helping.

But anyway:
Dmg - Res
Acc - Def
To Hit - target, like the base chance to hit the target

BTW, yeah, bashing heads for all to see is a bit daunting if I think about it, but its good if anyone else wants to throw their thoughs in on this.

Oh, and sorry about kinda hijacking your post pyro, but this is 'kinda' related.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Big Chill is a conscranker: he conrols a mob so they do nothing, scraps a target till they can't stand, and tanks what's left till the job's done.

Dive in, have fun, and think about it later.

12/08/07 18:41

pyro master

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RE: choking cloud question

lol, its fine big

12/09/07 12:28

Warron Peace

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RE: choking cloud question

(Base Tohit + (Tohit Buffs-Debuffs) - (Defense-Defense Debuffs))*(Base Accuracy+Accuracy Buffs)=Chance to hit the opponent

Accuracy multiplies the effectiveness of tohit. There is only one roll, with the final result being whether you hit or not. If I have a tohit buff on me, it'll affect all of my powers, and will directly counter any defense buffs on the opponent. Same goes true if I have a defense debuff on my opponent. All powers will have better accuracy against that opponent. Accuracy buffs are powers only. I have a tohit of 75% (PvE) and my attack has a base accuracy of 100%. That results in a 75% chance that that attack will hit my opponent. If I have a base 75% plus a 20% tohit buff, that attack will have a 95% chance, as will any other attacks I have that have a 100% base accuracy.

If I have 75% base and no tohit buffs and my attack is 100% accuracy, but my opponent has 20% defense to my attack, I end up with a 55% chance to hit my opponent with that attack. This is because (75%+0%-20%)*(1+0)=55%.

Now say I have no tohit buffs, and the opponent has no defense. I have 75% chance to hit with no accuracy buffs to the power. Say my power has 95% accuracy (3 SOs). The formula is this:

(75%+0%-0%)*(1+.95)=146.25% chance to hit, capped at 95%.

That is your overall chance to hit with that power. Accuracy affects each power individually, while tohit affects your overall chance to hit. It only rolls once, but which type of buff you have affects different aspects of your ability to hit. Generally, if it comes from outside the individual power, its a tohit buff and will affect all of your powers. If it comes from the power itself, it will only affect that power.

W.P.

my current project: Spine/Will farmer, Quillpower, on Virtue.

12/09/07 13:36

lani

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RE: choking cloud question

Help! He's throwing math at me!!!!

...

Mommy?

***I'll just take your word for it that it's ACC*ToHit then :-) ***

12/09/07 13:42

Warron Peace

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RE: choking cloud question

All that, and I forgot to answer the OPs question.

Choking Cloud is always hit. It ignores tohit and accuracy buffs, because it's effect will always hit. What it has instead is a roll to determine whether its effect goes off. It has an 80% chance for a Mag 1 Hold every time it pulses. It also has a 50% chance for a Mag 2 Hold every time it pulses. For a controller the duration of the Hold is longer than it is for a defender or corruptor. There is no way to increase the chances that the effect will go off. This is to prevent making this power into a perma hold toggle. It'd be too broken if you could make it hit more reliably.

For a controller that's going to be in melee range anyway, this is very handy to have. It does stack fairly well with other holds you have, and can help get a boss locked down that much faster. Its a personal call for you though. If you aren't going to be in melee range, then it's skippable. The end cost for running it is prohibitive unless you have it affecting about 3 foes, meaning you'd have to be in range for about 4-7 opponents for it to balance out.

W.P.

my current project: Spine/Will farmer, Quillpower, on Virtue.

12/09/07 13:44

Sturmwolf

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RE: choking cloud question

I'm running 2 Rad-Heroes atm.
1 Fire/Rad and 1 Rad/Rad.
I use CC with both of them and they are an important part of my playstyle.
With my Fire/Rad i'm leading my Imps right into close combat and stay with them with all my PBAoE support.
With my Rad/Rad, the safest spot in combat is right beside the anchor for Enervating Field and Radiant Infection (and of course beside my tank^^).
There I stand side by side with scrappers and tanks, firing Irradiate and healing me and my mates, so CC fits in pretty well.
Can't think of a Rad-build where I would call CC "skippable".
XD
AM+Hasten+2-3 End-Red in CC and my End-usage is ok.

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Remember first, that I'm not writing in my native language.
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12/09/07 15:08

BigChill

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RE: choking cloud question

QUOTE

(Base Tohit + (Tohit Buffs-Debuffs) - (Defense-Defense Debuffs))*(Base Accuracy+Accuracy Buffs)=Chance to hit the opponent

...

That is your overall chance to hit with that power. Accuracy affects each power individually, while tohit affects your overall chance to hit. It only rolls once, but which type of buff you have affects different aspects of your ability to hit. Generally, if it comes from outside the individual power, its a tohit buff and will affect all of your powers. If it comes from the power itself, it will only affect that power.

W.P.

Okay, that makes some sense. So, uh, yeah, what he said. Accuracy only affects the given power, ToHit affects all powers the character has. I.E. Build Up, Aim and Tactics increase the accuracy of all powers that are used for their related durations.

How this works with Chocking Cloud, I'm still not sure, never thought I used a related power, though Ice Patch seems similar. The skills I do constantly use, I.E. Chilling Embrace, Energy Absorption adn Rise to the Challenge, have no accuracy check and allways hit. But warren's explination sounds right. It fits with the effect of Ice Patch being a probably chance, and Tactics not being able to increace its odds. If that is so, there is no way to make this power more reliable, it is the best its gonna be. Heh, never really though of it that way, probably because I haven't really used Ice Patch in over a dozen levels.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Big Chill is a conscranker: he conrols a mob so they do nothing, scraps a target till they can't stand, and tanks what's left till the job's done.

Dive in, have fun, and think about it later.

12/10/07 14:57

dougnukem

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RE: choking cloud question

QUOTE

I've seen this as a topic of debate in the past, and while yes, you cannot slot Acc, there have been many who have claimed and proven, that with the Acc in IOs, CC has hit more often. Personally, I don't worry about it, and just look at it as a bonus when it hits/holds. I also have two different Psi procs in mine, so I consider that the cherry on top.

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12/12/07 08:02

pyro master

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RE: choking cloud question

QUOTE

i did end up taking it, and i also have the 2 psi's in there. and the game shows no + % when addin the hold sets with acc on them. so i stuck with 2 IO end red, 2 IO holds and the 2 psi damages from GW embrace and the other one, whose name i cant think of atm

12/12/07 13:55

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