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lani

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Super Heroes: Cultural relevance

Posh sounding title :-)

Here's the thing. A few days ago, Phe and I were running around the Rogue Isles and were discussing the fact neither of us really gets into Super Hero thing outside of the game, and inside not into the cape and mask variety. I forget how the full conversation went but at some point I said that "Super Heroes and their stories are to the US what fairytales, Vampires & Werewolves are to Europe. They fill a similar slot and prior to their advent, the US didn't have their own Mythology or Folklore.

To me this seemed "obvious" but Phe had never looked at it that way. She did agree with it immediately though, so I may not be completely off my rocker yet. But, I'd like to know how the US residents think about this. Folklore tends to be pretty national(istic) at times. Irish fairy tales are different from Scandinavian and Germanic ones. To me Super Heroes are the American flavor, but at base essentially the same.

Do you agree/disagree with the statement that Super Heroes are America's Mythology or folklore? And why do you agree or disagree? Europeans are of course allowed to butt in on the discussion. like anyone could stop us :-D

12/09/07 13:09

Rhingo

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RE: Super Heroes: Cultural relevance

First of all let me just say this is (in my opinion) an awesome topic to discuss and I for one am anxious to see everyone's different opinions on the subject. Kudos

Now as for your topic:

I kind of agree and disagree with your statement. It is a bit complicated to explain but I will try.

(for those of you who normally read my little novella sized posts I will more than likely find a way to summarize it - when I am finished writing it of course - so just scroll down :] )

As a fictional writer myself (though i have nothing published.....yet) I have found myself researching various folklore and fairytales from all over the world. It is truly fascinating and inspiring, and over the course of the past hmmm...bout 4 years I think I may have only touched upon maybe 15% of the folklore that is out there, and out of the 15% that I have come across so far, only a couple of small smidgets have been from America. ie. Paul Bunyon, Johnny Appleseed, John Henry and etc. I usually pass this off as either I haven't got to most of it yet, or our folklore is a bit lackluster due to the fact that we are considered to still be a young country. Across the seas you guys have so many vibrant and magical and dark and fascinating tales, and in my honest opinion we over here may very well have had some at one point, but we were too busy trying to grow up too fast to even remember them. That and the ones who probably had the coolest folklore over here were pushed aside and brushed off in the name of progress.

"Hello young explorer, can I interest you in the tale of the Wind and the Bear?"

"Not right now old man with feathers and beads in your hair, i need you and your family to relocate so i can build my house."

(alas that is prolly for another topic)

anywho - Comic Book heroes and Icons such as Spider-Man and Superman and so on may very well be considered by some as American folklore and such.

As the token Fanboy I say "FFFin A that is awesome! Spider-man is my hero!"

However as a Writer and Student of storytelling, I gotta disagree with you because i believe there is so much folklore and stories and in a since 'Wisdom' that is in this country that has yet to be fully explored and unfortunately for those of us who are over here it has become all but lost. I think this is largely due to the fact that Americans have tried to build this civilization in a fraction of the time it took for other countries to develop and grow. Those of you over seas in different countries who have had thousands of years (prolly more just used thousands to make my point) to develop and pass down beautiful and dark fairytales and folklore. In this country we tried to accomplish what took you guys thousands of years in a few hundred, and like I always tell my daughter when she is doing something for school, "Yes there are ways to complete it more effeciently and faster and there are shortcuts, but 9 times out of 10 you will almost always forget one or two things in the process."

And sadly I feel that in this country's race to civilization, we have forgotten some of the most lavish and beautiful folklore in the process because at the time it didn't seem important to the cause of industrialization or the economy. And our beautiful and inspiring folklore and fairytales that we may have had were replaced by a man in blue tights and a cape.

Summary: (told ya just scroll down)

As a huge comic fan, I think it is pretty cool to toy with the notion that some of the most Iconic comic book characters could be considered the folklore of this country.

As a Writer, I think it is a huge insult to the folklore and fairytales that existed prior to this county's forced growth spurt, to replace that type of heritage with a bunch of guys wearing spandex.

so it is kind of hard for me to give you a straight answer as far as "I Agree" or "I Disagree" cause I feel a bit torn towards this topic.

but this is still an awesome topic to discuss and talk about.

-Rhingo

**edit** sorry read something after posting that i didn't quite type out correctly if you read this before i fixed it I apologize i didn't finish one of my sentences before my mind got distracted and moved on to the next one so I wasn't blaming anyone for anything, i just forgot to finish the sentence. (and if you didn't read this before the edit disreguard it lol)

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Virtue

Fire Bug XI 50 Fire/Fire/Force Blaster
Granite Gargoyle 46 Dark/SR/Body Scrapper aka: Rhingo
Crazy Crustacean 40 Ice/EM Tank
Deja View 34 Mind C/Emp. Controller
Mythology 30 Peacebringer
Bling-Bling 29 MA/Regen Scrapper
Fire Bug XII 26 Fire/Fire Tank
and various alts

Victory

Ape Sexy 33 NRG/NRG Brute
various alts still trying to find my niche in the villian world

Champion

Juan Carlos 39 Thugs/FF Mastermind
Senor Pedro Vasquez 28 EM/Ninjitsu Stalker
By-Polar 25 NRG/Electric Brute

12/10/07 01:17

Phedre_D

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RE: Super Heroes: Cultural relevance

As lani already said I agreed with his idea. I had really never thought of it that way. I do like Rhingo's view too, although I think that Native American folklore is even more foreign to the average American than the European mythology.

On a side note, and more comic book related. There is also a huge difference in Amercian and European comics. When I grew up I was of course hooked on comics as well. But all comics I read were more cartoonish. Most of the Superhero comics are rather serious. They don't have jokes and punchlines on every page. Even the rather boring Tin-Tin had more sillyness than any Marvel story I know. (Which are not many, so maybe I am wrong.) So why is that? I have no clue. But maybe one of you have another bring insight on this too.

***FEELS KINDA NAKED WITHOUT A SIGGIE***

12/10/07 05:38

Rhingo

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RE: Super Heroes: Cultural relevance

QUOTE

On a side note, and more comic book related. There is also a huge difference in Amercian and European comics. When I grew up I was of course hooked on comics as well. But all comics I read were more cartoonish. Most of the Superhero comics are rather serious. They don't have jokes and punchlines on every page. Even the rather boring Tin-Tin had more sillyness than any Marvel story I know. (Which are not many, so maybe I am wrong.) So why is that? I have no clue. But maybe one of you have another bring insight on this too.

Comics originated from way back, if i rememeber correctly (i could be wrong) i believe since Ancient Egyptian times although it was more notable for just illustrated story telling, as opposed to humurous. Comics really didn't "take off" per say till the invention of the printing press where as artists would usually tell a humurous joke or pun or story through illustration and print.

And thus they were named 'Comic' Strips how apropos . It really wasn't untill later on in Comic Strip history that some of the stories began to take sort of a dramatic or action packed turn. And some of these were viewed by the papers at the time to be inappropriate or too violent so authors and illustrators sought alternative publishing routes to express themselves and hence the comic book.

Later on in history a cartoonist named......(i keep wanting to say Ed Asner but that is not him).......Eisner (i think, feel free to correct me if i am wrong)lobbied to have them called 'Sequential Art' but to my knowledge i don't think that name ever stuck, because hey... 'Comic Book' or 'Comic Strip' seems to roll of the tongue a bit better.

That is why a majority of the earlier comics be it Strips or Books were usually more or less sillier or spoofier (is that a word).

-Rhingo

**puts hands triumphantly in the air** I knew those three years of Cinematogrophy in High School would eventually be useful!!

12/10/07 11:20

lani

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RE: Super Heroes: Cultural relevance

That's more or less how I remember the "History of strips" too.
They started out in newspapers as first cartoons (as we still know them today) providing humorous commentary on whatever. At some point the 3 and 4 panel versions came in and to this day this form persists. A lot of these were and are still published in paper-back comic form as well. (Garfield, Snoopy & Dilbert to name a few)

It might be the few years difference between us, but I remember things differently from Phe. We did have a lot of "comical" comics with a punch line per day, mainly Asterix & Obelix, Suske & Wiske, Tin Tin, (sorry most of these will have completely different names in the US), but there were also strips like Storm, Tirgïe and my favorite of the time, Thorgall!
Those were definately more serious, though not exactly the 3-4 color marvel Comics. A typical Storm or Thorgall album would cost as much as a year's subion to X-Men at the time. Of course, Storm & Thorgall came out twice a year or so and were full colour prints. Anyway, that's my remembrance of Comics in my youth.

Fact is, in the 20's and 30's there were already Adventure Comics being printed in the US. Black & Whites, mostly rip offs of Alan Quartermain stories e.t.c. These were also more "serious" than the comical comics of Asterix or the belgian siblings. Tin Tin is largely a homage to those stories in fact.

Anyway, back to Super Heroes and their relevance/place in US culture. I think Rhingo is overly critical of his own culture. While it's true that the eraly US Residents were too busy grabbing resources to stop and listen to the wealth of folk-lore the native indians had to share, this does not mean they weren't creating folk-lore themselves. You have to remember, what you produce yourself seems mundane, whereas what comes from elsewhere always seems more exotic, more valuable. There's a whole genre of folk-lore, iconified in The Western.

It's nothing short of amazing that the US actually set up so much local culture so different in many ways from the cultures that lie at its roots, which is basically all of them. Sure, Hollywood is blatantly milking and misrepresenting at will, any piece of exotic folklore from any place in the world for what its worth. That too is American culture. But in many ways the US also created their own forms of art, literature & culture. The striptease, the Western, square dancing and of course, Super Heroes.

While I stand by my comment that the Super Heroes are in many ways what 'our' Folkloreical heroes (4 heemschildren & the Steed Bernhard for one) are to us, I do believe it's at the same time true and yet too simplistic. Also remember that when we say folklore or mythology a lot of that pre-dates the founding of the US and in many ways is as much "yours" as "ours". This especially applies to such ancient memes as created by Greek mythology. I mean, come on. We can blame the flaming greeks for inventing Soap Series if you look at it right :-)

Now, lets hope someone else joins the "fray" and we get more perspectives on this.

12/10/07 17:35

BigChill

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RE: Super Heroes: Cultural relevance

QUOTE

Posh sounding title :-)

Do you agree/disagree with the statement that Super Heroes are America's Mythology or folklore? And why do you agree or disagree? Europeans are of course allowed to butt in on the discussion. like anyone could stop us :-D

True, about the title anyway. I kinda agree that American Super Heroes have filled a kind of niche akin to European mythology and folklore, but it really doesn't compare that well. America has its own versions of adopted folklore, and ancient mythology from Europe, but Super Heroes don't really fit that role.

They really didn't appear (at least the modern ones like Marvel) until about half a century ago. They are too young and undeveloped to be considered in that larger genre.

I will agree, that perhaps in time, it may be possible that Super Heros will fill a role more akin to European mythiology, but they havn't gotten there yet.

I'll give a few reasons why I don't think that, and why they might.

#1 not; Sheer age. They are too young, and underdeveloped. The sotries, Marvel's anyway, lack any true solid core that anchors the characters. I'd say ask agin when they grow up.

Seriously, if you follow the storries of Marvel for a long time, like the X-Men, you'll see that they lack any true advancement, and too many variable pieces that can ruin a character. One reason why I've gotten so disgusted with them is their continual meddling, and inability to let characters move on, die, or otherwise progress.

#2 not; There is already existing original American folklore. Paul Bunyon, Johnny Appleseed, John Henry and etc as Rhingo said. Those are what can be considered folklore. They are established stories that hold their own unchanging core, that core makes the story what it is despite any perifial changes to the edges (i.e. times, characters, specific dailogue, it will still carry the core of the story and ring to the same tune)

This does not mean that they cannot potentially fill such roles. It probably won't happen if Marvel and other companies continue to meddle with them. However, if they let the stories mature, develop, and most importantly, keep a solid core within the story, theyy very well might reach that level.

#3 for; Wolverine. The very name should tell you the potential of what might be capible. He has been around the block enough, while retaining some of his story, but any attempt to develop a solid core that stays continually gets lost. His very oragin is a great example. If I dig aroud, I can guarentee no fewer than a dozen different beginings for him. Despite that, they all ring to a similar state of events, but unfortunately differ so much and contradict one another to the point that they are virtually worthless. But there is a small core that still remains.

In conclusion, it is entirely possible that American Super Heroes can potentially become some form of grand folklore, although it will probably need to be called something else, but it is in no way there yet. It is more of a curiosity that is growing there, but it still lacks some key points that it will need. I am not saying that that core is the only thing needed, and in some comparisons, isn't needed at all, but the fact remains: there is something that is needed for it to have that level of legendary fame, and it isn't there yet, It may be some day, but not now.

But then again, maybe I'm living in my own little world too much and just havn't noticed the Great American Super Heroes as an actual mythic folklore. I still kinda don't but I think in time, it might be possible.

Big Chill is a conscranker: he conrols a mob so they do nothing, scraps a target till they can't stand, and tanks what's left till the job's done.

Dive in, have fun, and think about it later.

12/10/07 18:02

Darkest Medicine

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RE: Super Heroes: Cultural relevance

I think you guys are starting to split this hair a litle too fine. Superheroes may not be actual "folklore" in the traditional sense, but they are MODERN Folklore.

When Paul Bunyan first started out, it was just entertainment. Some people added stories and variations, and years later...someone tagged them folklore.

As was said in an earlier post, comics are too young to be folklore, but folklore starts somewhere, right? Hell, I was talking to a guy that works for me about comics. He thought he knew all about the X-men. I talked to him for a bit and he didn't know the half of it. BUT.... he wanted to learn about the first team and how it all began. We even touched on when Spiderman was kickin' the crap outta Superman. I told him about the Lobo Vs Superman comic with not one single word in it. How is that any different from a couple cow-hands sitting around a fire and talking about a giant blue ox? He was so interested and wanted so badly to see them for himself.... ain't that a bit like our folklore?

Folklore tells something about the people that came up with it. Think about all the social commentary (some cheesy some relevant) that's been brought up in comics.... I think it is folklore...and as long as there's young 'uns wanting to hear and read about the golden oldies....as long as the characters grow and are larger than life and entertain us...

Call it what you will... I think of it as modern folklore being written as we watch. Anyways.... as long as some kid wants to read it and some kid comes up with good ideas, who konws... your kids' kids may be studying the folklore of the Green Lantern in college.

12/10/07 18:34

lani

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RE: Super Heroes: Cultural relevance

Oooh, I think you two make an excellent point together.
How about this statement then?

Super Heroes are (becoming) the folklorical / mythical beings of the 20th century.

The stories, the moral lessons, the iconic images of especially Super Heroes (in comics but also through movies / television) are a strong part of todays western culture. These for the larger part have been coming from the US this last half of the 2oth century. hardly any from Europe. Most likely in no small part due to the two World Wars that had such large impact on our societies this past century.

Each century, or age, has such. And tend not to be delegated to folklore until that age has passed. There's more than Super Heroes at the moment though. Through games and even more movies, we're revisting and inventing tons of them the last few decades. Ehm, I was going somewhere with this, but I lost my train of thought.

On Wolverine: I think his core personality / concept is what's already become folklorical, or at least iconical. Whether there are 20 or 30 genesis stories for him matters not. He's the man with the hidden past. THAT is part of his engimatic allure. He need not come from somehwere or go somewhere to complete our image of this character. In fact it will detract from it, but I suspect 50 years from now this character, the Platonic Idea of Wolverine, will be much as he is today. Maybe we'll all have forgotten the blue and yellow spandex though, but that may not be that bad }:-)

12/10/07 19:14

VICK VOLTAGE

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RE: Super Heroes: Cultural relevance

I don't know if it's relevant to post it here...but I just finished reading a great *novel* about super-heroes.

"Soon I will be Invincible" by Austin Grossman

I can't think of any stronger case of the cultural relevance of super-heroes than moving their exploits from comic to novel format. Particularly when the *novel* is so well written & so thoroughly enjoyable.

If you haven't heard of it or haven't read it I recommend you go out & find it & read it. Any denizen of CoH/V will not only find a highly enjoyable adventure, but will laugh at similar themes & parallels to their on-line exploits.

Cheers!
VICK VOLTAGE
Level 35 Tank
Infinity Server

12/10/07 20:42

Rhingo

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RE: Super Heroes: Cultural relevance

QUOTE

I think Rhingo is overly critical

Sorry (pretty sure my daughter can attest to that) i really can be not just about my own culture but about everything sometimes.

currently seeking psychiatric help ....no j/k

no i tend to usually make my mind up about how i feel about something 'then go for broke' then ask for forgivness later. which can be a strength, but also a huge weakness too.

So far it has been very intriguing to veiw everyone's different opinions about this.

D.Medicine: you are very right, it must start somewhere.

And Phe pretty much hit the nail on the head as to what sent me off on that wild tangent.

QUOTE

I think that Native American folklore is even more foreign to the average American than the European mythology.

Now i don't want to criticize any of these writers or anything because hey gratz, they have a job doing what they love or even the older authors for the same reason. But when our (using this as a very broad term) anscestors came over here or were brought over here or what not, they broguht with them some of the old European and African and Scandanavian folklore that is still passed down to us to this day and it is very honorable for us to keep in touch with our roots, but it feels to me that the original folklore that was here before our ancestors was suddenly brushed aside and remotely forgotten to some extent. And feeling this upsets me, and i am not even Native American.

and after reading BigChill's post, i kinda disagree with him at first then have to agree. Folklore is usually based on an unchanging core, in esscence certian details might change but the same simplistic core of the story has been passed down(if i am interprting that correctly) ok i agree however when most of the Marvel comics that i remember started they all pretty much dealt with the same moral core, a hero that is there to do the right thing and usually always has to make some kind of moral descision, and 99.9% of the time takes the 'Harder' road or the Morally right road. I disagree with you in the since that for the longest time most comics had this unchanging moral core. But once you start talking about these companies mettling with the core I am reminded that as of late they are changing writers like I change my underwear, often (as my wife reads over my shoulder a faint "I hope the hell you change it often!" can be heard throughout the house)and thus offering up different perspectives which keeps the readers on their toes, but at the cost of changing this moral core. And it is then when i realize this, that i feel you are very correct in what you say. Thus i start to find myself more and more in agreement with you.

**side note 1- Vick that sounds cool, I will deffinately have to check that book out.

**Side note 2- I must admit it is quite refreshing to have a discussion online with people and have everyone involved contribute their own ideals and perspectives and not have some idiot come in and flame the hell out of someone.

I hope I didn't speak too soon. And if I did you guys can just blame me - I'm married so I am used to everything being my fault.

12/10/07 22:37

BigChill

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RE: Super Heroes: Cultural relevance

Yeah, Rhingo, you hit it on the mark. Didn't even miss a beat.

But, Iani, there is a 'huge' difference between my point and just any old iconic state. Iconic in general is just a famous and easily recognisable object/person/whatever. Take Coca-Cola for example, classic iconic soft drink. Woverine is that too, but there is so much about him that fails in the folklore dept. Like, recently, and with the whole list of stories about him, if you dig deep enough, there is no 'hidden past' left. He kenw Sabertooth since childhood, he has been married at least twice, has lived and loved and moved on, and has 'done' everything. There is nothing 'mysterious' about him, the meddling killed anything that was his original core.

That is where there is so much wrong with American comics being directly related to mythic folklore. It definetly has the potential to become its own version of it one day, but it is failing miserably now. Like Rhingo said, as I said:

'But once you start talking about these companies mettling with the core I am reminded that as of late they are changing writers like I change my underwear, often (as my wife reads over my shoulder a faint \"I hope the hell you change it often!\" can be heard throughout the house)and thus offering up different perspectives which keeps the readers on their toes, but at the cost of changing this moral core' - (Danm, that's a good comparison, I should've though of that)

Until the major companies stop trying to change the characters, and let them actuially develop, they may become that mythic folklore. After all, for the last half a century, Marvel has been reliving the same decade or so over and over, there is a definite core, ti just doesn't stay the same. Sure there are changes with the changing writers, and a continual similarity, but the characters themselves never truly stay the same, or develop, or grow in any meaningful way. Yes they all 'basically' take the same hard road, but never the same way, never with the same core that can truly develop the character. But when the hell are they going to grow up and realize that? Its frustrating. because, essentially that is all that they need to do to become that 'mythic American Hero folklore' and actually live up to that.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Big Chill is a conscranker: he conrols a mob so they do nothing, scraps a target till they can't stand, and tanks what's left till the job's done.

Dive in, have fun, and think about it later.

12/12/07 10:20

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