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Phedre_D
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I am sure I will be locked up in a dark room and the key thrown away, but I think they should nerf a bunch of powers.
Yesterday we ran a mission on invincible while only being lvl 23. One tanker, one scrapper, one blaster. So we didn't even have control or healing backup, and yet we rushed through missions (including EBs) as if we played on heroic. Something must be off. I am a blaster and didn't even got my health below half once!
I don't play the game to get to 50 ASAP. I play to have exciting fights, and using skill and trickery to defeat my enemies. In stead I was mostly just button pushing. I have the feeling the enemies have gotten easier the last few weeks. And the new blaster defiant thingy isn't making it any better.
Invincible should really have close to invincible enemies. Ideally I think playing on invincible should mostly bring death and debt. Rugged should be the doable level for skilled players. The top two levels really ought to be a lot harder.
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| 12/12/07 04:16 |
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Sturmwolf
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Did you fight different foes or just one kind of foes?
Some foes are easier than other.
Sometimes foes that are hard to fight for one of my heroes are pretty easy with another.
It often depends on the powersets in the team and the fightingstyle of the foes.
Some foes are easy to herd and can be mowed down by AoE Blasters.
Some foes are vulnerable to vertain damagetypes...
...
etc.
I'm listening to real music.
Real Rock, real Gothic, real Rap, real Soul, real Funk...etc
(If you feel insulted by any of my posts.
Remember first, that I'm not writing in my native language.
You might missjudge me.)
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| 12/12/07 06:45 |
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dougnukem
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Sorry to say, but that's not anything new, Phed. A good team has been able to blow through missions on invinc for quite awhile. Calling for future nerfs because of it, has become something that goes on deaf ears these days. If the devs nerfed the game everytime folks could do this, this game would give you the power equal to a small Mario in Super Mario Bros. There is rarely a challenge for a good team, especially one that has folks that know how to team, and adjust to each other's strengths.
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| 12/12/07 07:22 |
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Phedre_D
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| QUOTE | | Sorry to say, but that's not anything new, Phed. A good team has been able to blow through missions on invinc for quite awhile. Calling for future nerfs because of it, has become something that goes on deaf ears these days. If the devs nerfed the game everytime folks could do this, this game would give you the power equal to a small Mario in Super Mario Bros. There is rarely a challenge for a good team, especially one that has folks that know how to team, and adjust to each other's strengths. |
Yeah, you are right, of course. I guess it was bugging me a bit yesterday that it went really really easy. And nerfing will most likely more hurt than increase the players base, so the devs would be crazy to listen to me. And there are many ways I could make things more challenging too for myself.
What it boils down to is that I just wanted to post something and hear what my fellow Ampers think about the difficulty of the game.
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| 12/12/07 07:34 |
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dougnukem
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But of course. :) I just know alot folks miss out on really great teaming, due to their schedule, or whatnot, and instead, get stuck with mediocre teams. I'm kind of spoiled by being in an excellent coalition, with alot of experienced people, so challenge can come far and between. the people I team with the most, are always looking to up the ante in missions. Doing things like aggroing more than the tank can handle, bull rushing the Rooms O Death, things of that nature. The only way to keep this game entertaining, is to raise the bar, and sometimes the difficult slider isnt enough. :)
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| 12/12/07 07:57 |
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lani
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Well, I was there with Phe, scrapping along.
I agree with her, though I think it's veteran and temporary powers that are to blame.
We did nearly wipe once, but that was by accident and the PC location Guestimation protocol nudging Phe off of a container at an inopportune time. Also, the Scrapper being the least experienced and devoid of veteran rewards to help out, naturally died three times :-)
So why am I blaming veteran powers?
Well, extensive use was made of the Staff thing (always forget the name). It's way too powerful and allows ranged attacks (most often for pulling) to originally Melee only AT's.
We also had the tank stealth to the target we had to rescue on two timed missions. We then took out the one mob surrounding the target and voila! Mission completed. I'm pretty sure Stealth isn't part of the normal Tank setup at level 20, is it?
My Scrapper died three times, once I had to use a wakey, but twice I could use my temp power to self-res and get back in the fray within seconds.
I had fun though. I also think if we weren't cutting those corners, it would have taken us quite a bit longer and maybe we would have died once more. I don't think it would have been more exciting or challenging to work our way through the mobs we skipped. It would have become tedious.
So, I blame the veteran award and temp powers system. Or, the implementation of it. Vet rewards should have stayed "fluff" reward, not game effective ones. Temp powers should be a bit more temporary than they are now imo.
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| 12/12/07 08:14 |
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Lightfoot27
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Well, I'm going to be honest here. Having played the game since its release, going thru all the nerfing and ED that turned us from superheroes to mostly effective-quasi-heroes. I would say that the only thing that could make me stop playing this game would be more nerfs. I was one of the people pleading for them not to enact all the previous nerfs, and I didn't have any of the offending archetypes... here is my reasoning. Some superpowers are naturally going to be more powerful than others. Take Batman and Superman. I know that superman would destroy batman in combat, but that doesn't make being batman a bad thing, or useless in any way. If this game is supposed to emulate the superhero world, I would want to be able to fly into a group of 30 skulls and mash them to bits, or run through a bunch of non-powered gun toting baddies. Now, one thing I noticed was that you said you had EB's with 3 people? I don't remember off hand how many it takes to spawn AV's, but I thought that it was 3 on invincible, I could definitely be wrong. But AV's should be the so called "nerf" you might be looking for. More of them in Invincible missions could provide the additional challenge you are looking for, but wouldn't hurt the general super powered feel of the game. I gotta be honest, if my powerset is supposed to be invulnerability, how can 20 mafia with tommy guns take me out? That, in my book, just isn't right. Sorry for the winded response, I just don't want my heroes to get weaker with time as they have already.
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| 12/12/07 09:22 |
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robot mind
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yeah i agree wit' all of you.
temp-should be more temp.
more AVs.
harder av.
but also more need for a plan (like not just running in and hacking away).
even tho that is fun :).
I'm not a altoholic...no really i only have 1000+ toons...thats not..really...never mind.
Ninja Strike!!!
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| 12/12/07 10:49 |
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BigChill
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Uh, I'm disagreeing with some of that
Good teams, are just that, good teams. My buddy and I can plow over EBs without even trying. (good question o the AV spawn, but I personally thought it was 4) Some characters are just that good, my conscranker can solo almost anything. So not everything is screwed up, some is, but if you know what your doing, there shouldn't be any problem.
Having quasi-permanent powers are helpful. Heck, I'd vote for having 'earnable' powers that you can get for completing something... wait, can't we already do that with Oberos? Damn, I hate not having instant access to this game...
Vet powers are just that, a reward for 'contributing' to the game for so long. It does fit, but if you don't like them, don't use them. But I'll agree some of them are really screwed up. I'd say keep the vet rewards in line with the AT of the character, mele for scrapper/tank ranged for blsters/def/trollers.
AVs are enough of a problem. If you have a good team, then they aren't, but for most PuGs they are a real hassle. After all, how many have psi based attacks? How many players don't have psi def/res? If anything, they should make it so AVs are more in-line with the teams, play off their own strengths/weaknesses. If its that way, then there could be more that can be dealt with, and some that are harder. But for now, I'd say they have it just fine.
Just keep in mind generalizing too much like that would get you something like the i7 nerf that screwed so many ppl because of the invincible AV regens.
BTW Lightfoot27, this is a city full of super-people, good and bad. You probably got mobbed by 20 super-bad baddies. But then again, good point, its a misleading powerset name. Its more like a 'resistant to most' powerset.
Big Chill is a conscranker: he conrols a mob so they do nothing, scraps a target till they can't stand, and tanks what's left till the job's done.
Dive in, have fun, and think about it later.
Do not pray for challenges to equal your strength, but for strength to equal your challenges.
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| 12/12/07 11:07 |
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LordStarwolf
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I'd have to go with lightfoot on this one. I find it hard enough to solo as it is and get any leveling done. Redesigning the game to make it harder to play, less fun to play, would be a stupid move, and if it got any harder to solo for a casual player then I would probably stop playing all together. It's at least three times harder than it was in I4 to level and when you have a real life and can't play that often then dragging out how long it takes to level makes it even longer to get anywhere. Considering how the member level dropped after all the previous nerfs, I'd say the majority of players feel the same way.
Guardian
Avant Guard = Emp/Rad/Psychic Defender Lvl 50 (Dedicated Healer)
Astral Plane = Peacebringer Lvl 50
Spica = Fire/Em/Energy Tank Lvl 50 (Scranker)
Avant Spines = Spines/Regen Scrapper Lvl 50 (AOE King)
Beliskner = Eng/Eng Blaster Lvl 42 (Blapper)
Avant Kin = Ill/Kin Controller Lvl 39
BMG = AR/Dev Blaster Lvl 29
Avant Psy = Psychic Blast/Empathy Defender Lvl 20 (Offender)
Avant Def = Kinetics/Energy Blast Defender Lvl 16
Avant Stone = Stone/Storm Controller lvl 15 (Super Controller)
Triumph
Lord Yu = MA/Regen Scrapper Lvl 25
Protector
Electrostun = Electric/EM Blaster Lvl 21 (Sapper)
T-99 = Ice/Ice Tanker Lvl 20
Starwolf = Katana/Inv Scrapper Lvl 18 (my very first toon, 3 1/2 years ago)
Pinnacle
Avant Claws = Claws/Regen Scrapper Lvl 24
Champion
Avant Dragon = Fire/Fire Blaster Lvl 20
Freedom
Avant Arch = Archery/NRG Blaster Lvl 50
Avant Char = Fire/Kinetics Controller Lvl 50
Avant Shade = Warshade Lvl 41
Avant Fire = Fire/Mental Lvl 34
And many, many, many, many, many more....
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| 12/12/07 11:08 |
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BigChill
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| QUOTE | | I'd have to go with lightfoot on this one. I find it hard enough to solo as it is and get any leveling done. Redesigning the game to make it harder to play, less fun to play, would be a stupid move, and if it got any harder to solo for a casual player then I would probably stop playing all together. It's at least three times harder than it was in I4 to level and when you have a real life and can't play that often then dragging out how long it takes to level makes it even longer to get anywhere. Considering how the member level dropped after all the previous nerfs, I'd say the majority of players feel the same way. |
LOL, Big Chill's story right there 2 years to get to lvl 46. Well, almost, I can tank almost anything,ut don't expect me to level fast.
Big Chill is a conscranker: he conrols a mob so they do nothing, scraps a target till they can't stand, and tanks what's left till the job's done.
Dive in, have fun, and think about it later.
Do not pray for challenges to equal your strength, but for strength to equal your challenges.
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| 12/12/07 11:10 |
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lani
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Well, being one of nature's healers I've long held to the following statement:
There's no challenge to beating up a 'Boss AI' with it's severely limited response and attack options. However, there's great challenge in keeping alive a bunch of random peeps each trying their own "Bestest way" of dealing with said Boss.
Any encounter that is made tough by the Devs, will eventually become easy /dull as a full-proof (not fool proof) method for taking him down is created. Having said that, I think having more AV style bosses in missions would be nice, in fact maybe bosses and lieutenants should also be beefed up a bit.
Btw, I'm not against the veteran reward system, I love the idea of unlocking stuff, mostly costume parts but also base goodies. I just don't think people should get extra combat abilities of a permanent nature.
I can understand people's concerns about soloing too though. Some AT's solo a lot better than others. To a point that's just the way things are, but when I consider how much difficulty my Defender or Contorller has soloing a Heroic Mission and my Scrapper, Controller, Master Mind an Brute all yawning through Rugged/whatever-the-Villain-version-is-called-I-think-mailicious I think there's another issue at stake there. See my suggestion in the Future thread for a solo/group toggle for some, if not all AT's.
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| 12/12/07 11:26 |
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Phedre_D
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A quick note on the EB thing. An AV does become an EB with 3 players when you lower it to rugged or below. So if the mission would have had an AV we would have encountered and AV. But a mission that just has an EB will not be upgraded to an AV no matter what the setting is.
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| 12/12/07 11:35 |
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Sturmwolf
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Making the game in general harder is defenitly the wrong way.
I solo a lot.
Even my squishy Defenders and Trollers solo a lot.
And some Lts and Bosses are hard to get down even now.
A Freakshow Tank can one-shot a Defender.
If you make them even harder, you would make it impossible for these ATs to solo.
EVERY At should have the ability to solo a mish.
You should force some ATs into teams.
I'm listening to real music.
Real Rock, real Gothic, real Rap, real Soul, real Funk...etc
(If you feel insulted by any of my posts.
Remember first, that I'm not writing in my native language.
You might missjudge me.)
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| 12/12/07 13:25 |
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bytekhan
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I don't know if "nerfs" are the answer but smarter mobs would make the game way more interesting. I'd really like to see some anti-herding mobs or mobs that make adjustments as a team progesses thru a mish. I give a sarcastic "yay" when I see the ol' "Herding to here" message displayed. Worse is waiting outside a mish while the leader finds a tank or a healer.
To be honest, I'd rather be on an average team that goes on a mish and has to fight it out than a super duper team that slaughters mob after mob (yawn).
IDEA: How about they let players become bad guys on missions? A team doesn't know if there are any player/baddies on any given mission, only that the mission might have some.
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| 12/12/07 13:26 |
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lani
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| QUOTE | | IDEA: How about they let players become bad guys on missions? A team doesn't know if there are any player/baddies on any given mission, only that the mission might have some. |
Reminds me of a feature of LotRO, at least during Beta.
People could do exactly that. It was being wildly exploited despite the fact that you'd play a monster on a different server (as far as you knew) than the player group.
Dunno if it ever made it to Live, it was exploited BAD.
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| 12/12/07 15:17 |
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Thundarpants
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Ah, Scrapper Tanker and a Blaster running through level 20'ish missions on invincible......
Like said before, that's nothing new. Once you have the game mecahnics down pat from running higher leveled toons, the wimpy ass mobs they throw at you in those levels would be a breeze. Make it group of long time players with their pimp stick(Nemasis Staff) and Sands of Mu, and you got a plow group from Hell. Add temp powers, and it gets even easier.
One reason for the Veteran and temp powers is to assist the older players through the low level grind. I mean come on, how many times have you seen these level 20'ish missions, and how long do you want to spend getting through them?
On top of that, you need to look at your team make up:
Damage soak + two of the highest DPS classes in the game. Two of which are the easiest to solo through these levels. With a Blaster and A Scrapper running behind a half assed decent tank, nothing would live long enough to outmatch the Tank's ability to soak. An experienced Tanker and they could be sloppy and still plow.
Phe, you've been around as long as me. No matter what they do, they won't nerf us. I've seen every nerf as well..... no change, I still plow the game.
Here's a test for you. Take the same makeup of Tank, Scrapper and Blaster into a level 50 mission with Malta, Praetorians, Knives of Artemus or Nemesis, and put that mission on Invincible. You'll find that your plow group just turned into hamburger. It should ramp up as the levels go so that you can't be quite so free and loose with the 3 man team makeup. But the 3 man team is an optimal team size for good mobs just before the tipping point of mob size as well. ("3 man" can easily be replaced with the "3 woman" team....... >^__^<)
The 20's are just gonna be too easy for the long term, experienced players. Nerfing would really only hurt the newer players in the game just starting to run through these levels, running without Patron Powers, not knowing where to get all the cool temp powers and so on. And if you nerf primary and secondary powers because the low level missions are too easy, you will be hurting yourself in the 40+ range when the entire game difficulty takes a big leap.
I know that sometimes it's too easy on the experienced players. Sort of why I drifted away from the game for so long.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
World of Warcraft
Don't hate Raza because she's beautiful......
Because she's not......
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| 12/12/07 15:50 |
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Jorden_Yen
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| QUOTE | | QUOTE | | Sorry to say, but that's not anything new, Phed. A good team has been able to blow through missions on invinc for quite awhile. Calling for future nerfs because of it, has become something that goes on deaf ears these days. If the devs nerfed the game everytime folks could do this, this game would give you the power equal to a small Mario in Super Mario Bros. There is rarely a challenge for a good team, especially one that has folks that know how to team, and adjust to each other's strengths. |
Yeah, you are right, of course. I guess it was bugging me a bit yesterday that it went really really easy. And nerfing will most likely more hurt than increase the players base, so the devs would be crazy to listen to me. And there are many ways I could make things more challenging too for myself.
What it boils down to is that I just wanted to post something and hear what my fellow Ampers think about the difficulty of the game. |
Isn't that what the Oroboros missions are for? I realize I've been out of the game for a year, but from what I read, you can set challenges like no deaths, no heals, etc.
That should change the focus of your play by a lot no matter how experienced your team.
Jordan's Town
My lousy name for the comic that I did which can be found here CoH @ JeremyDuffy.com
My favorite guide - Advanced Costuming. How to work your costume into your character's theme, story, and playstyle.
Jordan Yen 50 Dark/Dark/Dark Defender
Doctor Kev 50 Necro/Dark Mastermind
Grave Sally 50 Rad/Kin Corruptor (slowest combo in existance)
Mudnuke 42 Earth/Rad Controller
Shazel 38 Fire/fire/fire blaster
Screaming Gale 38 Storm/Sonic Defender
Jordan Yin 38 Warshade, Jordan Yang 35 Peacebringer
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| 12/16/07 19:07 |
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dougnukem
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| QUOTE | | QUOTE | | QUOTE | | Sorry to say, but that's not anything new, Phed. A good team has been able to blow through missions on invinc for quite awhile. Calling for future nerfs because of it, has become something that goes on deaf ears these days. If the devs nerfed the game everytime folks could do this, this game would give you the power equal to a small Mario in Super Mario Bros. There is rarely a challenge for a good team, especially one that has folks that know how to team, and adjust to each other's strengths. |
Yeah, you are right, of course. I guess it was bugging me a bit yesterday that it went really really easy. And nerfing will most likely more hurt than increase the players base, so the devs would be crazy to listen to me. And there are many ways I could make things more challenging too for myself.
What it boils down to is that I just wanted to post something and hear what my fellow Ampers think about the difficulty of the game. |
Isn't that what the Oroboros missions are for? I realize I've been out of the game for a year, but from what I read, you can set challenges like no deaths, no heals, etc.
That should change the focus of your play by a lot no matter how experienced your team. |
This is very true. If you think this game is easy, then set up some challenges on your Flashback Arcs. Try debuffing yourself, buffing the enemy, and going without enhhancements. That's a challenge. :p
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*I am an AoE addict! *
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| 12/18/07 08:53 |
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swissarmy68
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Except the flashback arcs don't give XP do they? I thought it was just like getting exemplared and you are going more for the badges and stuff.
Swiss
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| 12/18/07 09:24 |
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RonJ73
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Regarding the vet rewards.
Once you get into your late 20s and 30s, they're really not that handy. The Nemesis Staff is still nice for the knockback, but the powers are unenhancable. So the amount of damage that the Nemesis Staff and Sands of Mu do is unimpressive at higher levels, and they use a TON of endurance.
They're nice for that Level 5 tank with his 1 attack, but for a level 30-50 you'll have little or no use for it. I've even removed them from my tray on Scotch Bonnet Girl.
City of Heroes/Villains
Onion - L50 - Katana/Super Reflexes/Body Mastery Scrapper
Scotch Bonnet Girl - L50 - Fire Aura/Fire Melee/Pyre Mastery Tanker
RonJ73 - L50 - Stone/Energy Aura Brute
Aurora Australis - L50 - Willpower/Energy Melee Tanker
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| 12/18/07 09:34 |
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dougnukem
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| QUOTE | Except the flashback arcs don't give XP do they? I thought it was just like getting exemplared and you are going more for the badges and stuff.
Swiss |
Only if you do the ones that require an exemp. You can still do ones in your level range, and gain exp.
My point was more to the fact of people not getting enough challenge out of the game in general. Heck, a ton of folks still play their 50s long after hitting 50, and get bored with the end game content, so this is a great way to renew the challenge in the game. It's like going back and doing the TFs, but you can make it even tougher than just hoping you picked the right powers at the right levels. (read: no travel for Posi :p)
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*I am an AoE addict! *
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| 12/18/07 09:39 |
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