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Evil Geek

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Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

I play Ursan alot, I've read endless topics about it being overpowered and how it takes the skill out of the game followed by countless arguments to the contrary. What those topics did raise and get me thinking about is this:

Is Ursan the shape of skills to come in GW2?

There is no doubting that grind is a necessary evil for a game that doesnt expect to see any significant new content, what else we going to do once we've completed the storylines and dungeons? Maxing titles is a good tool - we have the promise that the grind will be beneficial to us in GW2 (only in an aesthetic way of course) and a funky HoM to show off our Armor collections, exotic pets etc. Thats all good for those who are happy with some grind, what isnt quite so good is that the introduction of PvE only skills lately has mean't a grind is required to increase their effectiveness, something relatively new to the game which started with Nightfall.

One of the base selling points of GW was always skill over grind, which it always was- once your atts are maxed, get the skill and done, great way of leveling the playing field between the hard core and the casual gamer. Now, with EotN we have skills that are ridiculously over-powered compared to everything that came before, as PvE skills they escape any PvP balancing and allow the developers alot more free reign, Ursan Blessing and Pain Inverter are the two most obvious skills that come to mind.

Grind is the only way to increase the skills effectiveness. It's a common way of dealing with skills in alot of MMOs, in fact all the 'big name' MMO's I've played have used this way of skill advancement. While I see how grind can be used for holding a players interest I've never personally enjoyed it much. GW's way of dealing with skills has always been alot more interesting and provided for alot more diversity.

The creation of seperate skills for PvE is a good way to aolve the problem of a split community within GW, something we expect to see magnified in GW2 where its likely all PvE skills will be divorced from PvP skills. There are lots of positives to that - The only balancing that is really needed in PvE is difficulty against AI, once that required difficulty is reached end of story, that skill should then remain the same forever, favourite builds will stay that way and be completely unaffected by the PvP meta .

Will those PvE skills in GW2 rely on grind ? For a 'free to play' business model with a long time-span between release/expansions, grind makes some sense to keep a players interest, we have it now while we wait for GW2. GW however was always about skill over grind, I dont think they would lose that model for PvP in GW2 but recent changes worry me that they may think that the PvE community may want/enjoy that kind of grind based skill progression.

So a question to the PvE players - Is a less complex skill system that requires grind a good way to go with PvE skills in GW2?

It maybe they are working on something completely new and fresh for PvE skills that has no grind (I hope so) but recent PvE only skills have got me thinking the contrary...

Ursan might be a bit of fun but creating unique and effective skillbars has always been a big part of the 'guts of the game' for me, I hope GW2 sticks with that skill over grind ethos for skills in PvE too.

02/29/08 19:46

Paramounts_of_Odin

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

Well E.G., personally I don't like the idea of a "less" complicated system, but for lords sake they shouldn't make it impossible. Off topic, yet still kind of applies to my meaning, the mission Gyala Hatchery: If you know what the hell you are doing, and clear the mission from back to front then spam the smoke cannisters, none of the baby turtles die. But would I have found out about how to earn masters on my own? Heck no. That mission was way to hard to earn masters before I was told about starting in the back. This concept can be applied to skills, imo. When i first went post searing on my monk, I was granted orison, and not much else for heals. B/c it was not my first character to go post it was behind the times and I was verbally put down for the use of healing breeze, but in all honesty, at the time I had zero other skills to replace them, or the money to buy new ones from the skill trainer, so I said to hell with pick up groups and went for my all time favorite, use the liability henchmen to do quests that earned you skills (Favorite Part of GW, skill earning, not the henchmen). GW, shouldn't require certain skills to beat an area, certain skills should just make other parts easier. That is way I disagree with the part about the pve only skills, b/c pain inverter is a hex, hexes can be removed, and bosses are overpowered anyway. Why is it that the jade brotherhood, although also human are levels higer than my almost 3 year veteran warrior with over 3 million experience, I think it's rediculous. Glint is okay, she is centuries older than me, and a dragon, I could understand her being hardcore to stop, and she is until people recognized the skills she used and figured out how to counter them, but what if she didn't stop using such and such a skill at 3/4 health, then your group would be in a world of hurt, and suffering from exhaustion...etc. Not sure if I want to say more. Not sure if I answered your question. ^^But all that is what I think.^^

02/29/08 20:14

Rogue

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

Unfortunately, a guild named "World of Charcraft [GWII]" has either not played in 3 months, or tanked off of the ladder, or simply disbanded. I laughed so hard when I first saw that name appear on obs mode, then though about crying because of how true it looked at the time. Later, as much as 'now' I actually see this as even more of a possibility. The balance on the game is going to be so strenuous and ridiculous that they even decided to go along the route of separating PvE and PvP completely.

As for just the skills: I think it has a chance of being something like a combination of what we have in GW, as well as what they have in WoW. Let me explain for those of you who have not played World of Warcraft: In WoW, every time you gain ~2 levels, new skills are unlocked for you to buy. In GW PvE skills, they go up in power based on how many tiers of title tracks you have ground out. GW2 I see as possibly being a compromise. You won't have to buy a new skill every time, but it will grow in power every time you level.

This is all speculation, but I'm a little bit scared of GW2 for the reasons above.

IGN: Rogue Mysst. Guest me for GvG.

02/29/08 20:24

Paramounts_of_Odin

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

BTW, Great topic Geek, plus credit.

02/29/08 20:25

Chrisworld

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

What im hoping is there will be a division completly between pve and pvp, you can still use pve chars in pvp stuff but there is a whole copy of skills ONLY with pvp incase anet wants to nerf away skills for pvp and ruin it for pve farming.

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02/29/08 20:39

patrickvp

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

I don't mind GW's brand of "grinding" much mainly because it is unnecessary in order to play the game as a whole. Sure, PvE skills get better with higher title ranks, and your PvE build options expand if you want to use them, but there's not really any NEED to use those skills. The main downside I've witnessed is people wanting to form Ursan parties, and requiring people with high Norn ranks. But then, I haven't really seen many Ursan parties; most people just skill-up and go. Also, the armors that require r5 are just aesthetic, and aren't any better than the stuff you get from Kaineng or Boreal for 1k (plus in$criptions), so they are not necessary either.

Course, in PvP it can be tough to PUG if you don't have a decent fame title (mainly in HA, I suppose). Its not quite the same, of course, because fame doesn't buff the skills you use, but is instead used as a measuring stick (justly or unjustly, as the case may be).

Long before titles came out, I suppose some people would have said I was "grinding" for one thing or another, but really I just wanted to go out and kill bad monsters after a long day at work, and didn't really care if I got anything out of it.

Bottom line, as long as I can ignore grind if I choose to, I have no problem with it. If, on the other hand, the whole game comes screeching to a halt until I can build up some attribute by grinding, then there's a problem. To the best of my knowledge, the only place this happens in the current GW incarnation is in Nightfall, where it requires certain Sunspear ranks before you can proceed in a couple areas on the island. The requirement isn't high, but I do seem to recall it annoyed my derv...

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

02/29/08 20:45

Jamnog

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

rogue... I'm a rpg fan pve is close to the rpg I played for years single player (and on paper). the pvp aspect yeah i like it its not pac man or streetfighter... its arcade however. and damn me to snotlin if I ever agree with you on anything but if gw2 turns out the way your scared it will I will join you in drinking away my sorrows in a dwarven ale. no dont sperate the two I couldn't be doing without pvp I don't understand it like but it gives me a rush and i do kill plenty when Im in there 6 flawless victories in ra in a row might not seem like much to many but as you know what I'm like thats not bad for a necro. (4 in t.a.). I blame you entirely for my pvp thing and thanks [btw the ta was a nutters like me styple team against real pvp types]. dont worry i will email anet and mash them to a pulp with more mindless drivel like wat i produce than seen here if they try an turn gw into wow (yes I tried it too).

02/29/08 20:53

itsthatemochild

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

personally, i dont think a few gimmick builds like ursanway ruin the pve experience IF they have a few limitations

for example, UB could be limited to use in Norn or EotN areas, so it does not overbalance the standards set in earlier campaigns

any new skill in GW2 similar to UB should be character specific. blessing tends to blend all classes into an indestinguishable blob, with only a few traits that make any difference (high armor, SR, etc). instead, why not have different abilities for every class that might make certain areas a bit easier, without turning your group into a generic mob.

one could also consider the possibility of limiting the use of such skills, similar to powers in the elder scrolls games (for those of you who dont know, they are spells/abilities that can be used once a day). by limiting the number of charges over a time period, it would require players to use a real build, only relying on the skill in the most difficult situations.

anyway, thats what i think

p.s. EG, nice to see you posting again

"The most merciful thing in the world... is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." -H.P. Lovecraft

"He who is not radical at twenty has no heart,
while he who is still radical at forty has no brain."

02/29/08 21:07

oOFriedRiceOo

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

to make it simple,
ursan+ hb monk (healers boon) = ownage
(ownage)= nerfed
(nerfed)= mad people
(mad people)= rant and rave

i dont have the attention span to read all that :P hurts my eyes

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

02/29/08 22:11

TheBeano

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

I agree with a lot of what has been said. Patrick, well said indeed, and I too am the same way. Just messing around after work is a great way to unwind. Grinding for max titles, etc is not for me. If they do decide to take away that balance between the grinders and the non-grinders, I think it may spell the end for me.

EG, you've raised some great points and I'd like to reiterate/rephrase something you said regarding PvE skill bars. To me, there's nothing better than the satisfaction of creating a novel skill bar. Piecing together seemingly disconnected skills into something that works for the purpose in mind. The UW Duo build a guildie and I put together comes to mind. Having the ability to simply put some skills on a bar and test your build against the desired baddies is great. I rue the day when I'd have to go out and grind to rank 9 or 10 on a title track in order for my build to be successful. That's why I hope the current formula isn't modified too much. It is a great balance for the grinders and the non-grinders.

I also wanted to touch again on something Patrick said... perhaps one of my favourite parts of the game when I first started was unlocking new skills, through quests, at low levels. When this was taken away in Factions, I think we lost a great aspect of the game. There was really no better way to try new skills and experiment with them. With my first character, I'm not sure I bought a skill until I was close to level 15.

All in all, I think the formula they've developed is wonderful. As a casual gamer (I'd say I average maybe 10-20 hours a week, depending on my schedule/workload), the game is great for me. I don't need to grind to get into "Elite" areas or to make my skills more effective. I have to say that the prospects of levels higher than 20 (or even unlimited levels) has me concerned. I guess time will tell...

Great discussion ED! We still need to get together sometime in-game!

02/29/08 23:07

hikimi

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

i think the adding of the PvE skills is alright. i myself dont grind much. i cant farm at all. its impossible for me.
so i just use the skills i have and make use of a higher level of skill and timing that players who just rely on power probably dont have.
i think that when Anet added the PvE skills they did it for balance.

there are lots of new skills added to guildwars since proph.
so most of those skills get used in PvP if a build gets really good for PvP it needs a nerf if its unbalanced. but if its used for farming or a specific team in PvE it causes backlash from them and vice versa. by adding th powerful PvE skills people are more likely to use those to power through PvE than other skills so Anet is less likely to have to nerf a skill because it becomes to powerful in PvE.

so they have ligthened the load on thme in terms of balancing hardcore PvP with PvE.

trust me try managing the balance on a whole game of skill trying to keep everything fare across the board. that cant be easy im sure of it.

03/01/08 03:56

stanzhao1

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

i dont think anything like this will happen in gw2. If that is the case, they may aswel just have 8 skills per profession. I would like to think that skills like ursan in gw2 will be just another option. But the great thing about gw is the 8 skill bar. being able to mix and match attributes for different things, i.e farming.

The way i see it, is that the ursan, asuran title blessings are just clues as to what will happen in gw2. as it currently stands, everyone has a base amount of health and energy etc (energy maybe not so much, but you see what i mean). The only thing that separates different classes at the moment, are runes and armor strength. Hopefully gw2 will change this for the better and make for more tactical play. In the fact that norn chars will have x more amount of health, and asura x amount of energy.

It will be interesting to see how they make skills available to different races. if everyone, like currently in gw, everyone is on a level plain, apart from what runes you can equip. Or if certain races will have separate skill sets. Of course this brings up the problem that the meta for pvp could be extremely one sided, should someone come up with something, say, like ursanway, in pvp, only available through the norn race. then of course everyone will just play that. same goes for pve.

I'm hoping, that there wont be any exclusive skills for races in gw2, but being the race for the skills, ie norn, will give you an advantage of using norn blessing, say only norn can get to rank 12 slayer etc.

all in all, i want to be surprised. i dont want to know exactly whats going to happen, that keeps the game fresh for me. But pve vs pvp skill balances is something that will be interesting to see

03/01/08 04:33

Silver Genesis

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

I have to agree with the fact that Ursan is making it less complicated, but as my main character is a ranger I'm looking it from this side:
DoA was for a long time Cookie Cutting Country. (Tank, Monks, Eles and necs for damage, and a support BiP) Paragons, Assassins, Rangers, Mesmers were not welcome there. (Dervishes were because of the tank abiltities). Now with Ursan it doesn't matter anymore which profession you play, because only ur ranks in norn and lb matter.

Some people say to me: find a nice guild, look for players who do accept rangers, paragons, mesmers etc., but that's not that easy.

I was in The Deep (still cookie cutting) yesterday and there was standing an Assassin who was looking for a party.
Everyone laughed at him because he was an Assassin in The Deep!! Hilarious!! hahaha

So my point is, people accept all classes now (in DoA especially) and you can play whichever class you like. Tho I do agree that ursan gets boring after a while.

03/01/08 04:35

Keo

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

Thinking on Stans point what if skills are tied to race in GW2 as some are tied to primary attributes in GW? You could get & use the skill but you could only get it to the 16 attrib equivalent if you have the right race and rune set.

I think that should make for an even more varied meta if you have more than just the Primary/Secondary class consideration.

As for skills being tied to PvE & PvP they will always have to do that otherwise they'll need to think up a new reason for nerfing those farmers!

How many player do you see with one build tho? They make it and stick with it whatever the conditions becase 'It worked in RoF so it should work in DoA!'. Will people care about their builds unless there is a chance to better the skills they already see as the best?

With Ursan people know that it's good, they know they can get in teams, but they also know they can make it better by grinding up their Norn rank. With regular skills once they'd capped 100 Blades they decide it's the mutts and never change their bar or play style. I know this, I've played pretty much the same build on my Warrior for the last year and only changed it when the situation requires that I do. My Norn track is feeble...just got R4 today...so I can do more damage with a sword but ppl still want Ursan.

Imo if there's a skill problem it's not with the skills themselves but with the players not knowing the meta or wanting to change their bar. Most areas in the game can be played through with pretty much any rubbish you drop on your bar so people don't change, then you get to elite areas like UW & DoA or just HM missions and people complain it's too hard simply because they can't understand that they need a different build for the area.

Ursan gets around that by being crazy powerful and lets the team roll over anything. This lets the casual player, the less experienced, play those elite areas they couldn't get to before.

This same idea could be used to balance the PvE side of GW2, it could give you two ways to play through the game, allowing access to everybody without the need for an in depth understanding...just a little grinding.

Hmmm...I think I made my point somewhere in there?! :p

^_-

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03/01/08 06:18

Jamnog

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

I feel I should explain what I was saying this morning at 1am... but I have no idea what I ment.

perhaps this exaplains it

yes it was full when we started doa

03/01/08 06:55

KahlanXvii

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

Im rly starting to wonder if Ursan = Godmode or Failmode.

I'v been a monk now in several norn fam groups but zomg :/ everyone thinks they are freaking invincible now.

As a monk I have barely any time to regen energy, because the second that one group of foes is dead they agro the next. Or they run off and start soloing 4 agro bubbles out of my range :/ Lol and when they realise they are most likely going to die, they run, run, run, and zomg now the monks got agro because they were stupid enough to run towards the monks... Instead of keeping a certain distance from the monks they just run up to them and are like "Heal noobs heal" -> party wipe because of monks getting agro -> "noob monks"

It seems that for every decent Ursan player there are 15 Ursan Idiots. Guess that balances the skill afterall ><

So I hope they do not put skills like these in gw2 :/

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

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03/01/08 07:21

Corruplt Intrept

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

Less Grind, more Mind.

Regards,
Corruplt Intrept

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IGN: Baine Bloodfinger

03/01/08 08:26

Survivingsin

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

QUOTE

Less Grind, more Mind.

Regards,
Corruplt Intrept

/win /agree

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03/02/08 16:20

Riotpoll

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RE: Ursan -The future of PvE skills in GW2?

Grind is bad, therefore pve skills should increase in power by doing challenging quests or quest lines (like the Titan quests). Killing the same monsters over and over is dull; this is part of the reason why I don't play Guild Wars very much at the moment.

03/02/08 17:21

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