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eyeronik
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As far as I can remember, I've always been a scrapper/blaster kinda guy.. It seems as of late, I'm more interested in the Tanker build. I'm thinking of making a Fire/EM Tank, considering it still has the scrapper elements. The only problem is, I have absolutely no idea where to start. There's a lot of holes in the Fire Primary, and I was wondering if someone can make me a simple guide, just to lead the way for me. I appreciate it very much. =]
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| 03/05/08 20:18 |
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thejeni
Posts: 26
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| QUOTE | | As far as I can remember, I've always been a scrapper/blaster kinda guy.. It seems as of late, I'm more interested in the Tanker build. I'm thinking of making a Fire/EM Tank, considering it still has the scrapper elements. The only problem is, I have absolutely no idea where to start. There's a lot of holes in the Fire Primary, and I was wondering if someone can make me a simple guide, just to lead the way for me. I appreciate it very much. =] |
1st off Welcome to the site, eyeronik!
2nd, I personally have never played a tank, but if you are looking for guides about tanks in general, I would suggest this one, as it gives a lot of basic info. There is also a guide that is titled "Tankers and Power Pools: How to Patch Those Pesky Holes in Your Primary" that I think would come in handy for you. I would also suggest checking out the Guides section on the site and doing a search for tank. There don't seem to be any specifially for fire/em, but you may find one you like more.
Also we have some really knowledgable people about tanks on this forum, so when you get specific questions, I have no doubt they will be able to answer them for you.
Siggy created by DeathFetish.
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| 03/06/08 00:32 |
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LordStarwolf
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Congratulations! You picked the best combo for scranking. Since you come from the scrapper/blaster background it will make for the easiest transition for you. The only question is do you want a scrnaker, agro tank, or something in between? The build isnt the best for an agro tank (one that just agros and doesnt kill) but it will do the other two just fine.
The one thing your defnitely going to have to do is get the leaping pool and get up to acrobatics. Fire has NO KB protection and you'll get knocked around like a 98 pound weakling otherwise.
Other than that, for a scranker concentrate on the melee attacks. Slot them up for recharge and damage. Also, either way, your going to really need an End control strategy. EM is kind of end heavy. Definitely plan on at least one end slot in your attacks. And get consume as early as possible.
If you want to be balanced get fire shield slotted up as soon as you can. I have found Temperature Protection is something that can be left for later in the build, if at all. I never got it. Fire shield helps with that altready, so i never felt the need.
Burn is not a whole lot of use anymore. You can find the odd time it could be handy, but in my opinion, not enough to waste a power slot on it.
On the melee side pretty much all the powers are good. If you want balance get taunt. If you want to scrank just throw a taunt in firey aura and it'll do. For balance just get a good mix of stuff for slots in the attacks. For scranking load them up with acc, damage and recharge. And dont forget an end mod too, especially in the higher end attacks. They will drain your end in no time.
My fire/em scranker can kill as fast as any scrapper and live twice as long. You'll have a blast.
Guardian
Avant Guard = Emp/Rad/Psychic Defender Lvl 50 (Dedicated Healer)
Astral Plane = Peacebringer Lvl 50
Spica = Fire/Em/Energy Tank Lvl 50 (Scranker)
Beliskner = Eng/Eng Blaster Lvl 40
Avant Kin = Ill/Kin Controller Lvl 35
Avant Spines = Spines/Regen Scrapper Lvl 36 (AOE King)
BMG = AR/Dev Blaster Lvl 27
Avant Psy = Psychic Blast/Empathy Defender Lvl 20 (Offender)
Avant Def = Kinetics/Energy Blast Defender Lvl 16
Avant Stone = Stone/Storm Controller lvl 15 (Super Controller)
Umbral Plane = Warshade Lvl 14
Triumph
Lord Yu = MA/Regen Scrapper Lvl 24
Avant Psy = Rad/Psy Defender Lvl 14 (Offender)
Lord Starwolf = Sonic/Electrical Blaster Lvl 14 (Blapper)
Protector
T-99 = Ice/Ice Tanker Lvl 20
Electrostun = Electric/EM Blaster Lvl 21 (Sapper)
Starwolf = Katana/Inv Scrapper Lvl 18 (my very first toon, 3 years ago)
Avant Sonic = Sonic/Sonic Defender Lvl 14
Pinnacle
Avant Claws = Claws/Regen Scrapper Lvl 18 (Non-power pool toon)
Champion
Avant Dragon = Fire/Fire Blaster Lvl 20
And many, many, many more....
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| 03/06/08 07:14 |
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eyeronik
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Yeah, I'm not really going for an aggro tanker.. Right now I'm level 9, and I've got
Fire Shield
Healing Flames
Barrage
Energy Punch
Bone Smasher
Consume
I'm probably going to wait to get Blazing Aura, if I get it at all. I'm trying to build my character for PvP too, so I have to find a way to get Acrobatics, Stamina, Tough, and Hasten before thirty, because I'm a Siren's Call animal. Why do you consider Burn useless? I think I may get it instead of Blazing Aura to hold aggro, and get those sneaky Stalkers. Plus, (correct me if I'm wrong) I think it's the only power for this build that protects from immobilization. Thanks for the input so far guys.
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| 03/06/08 20:28 |
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eyeronik
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Here's what I'm probably gonna do for now..
10 - Combat Jumping
12 - Plasma Shield
14 - Super Jump
16 - Swift
18 - Health
20 - Stamina
22 - Hasten
24 - Acrobatics
26 - Punch or Kick
28 - Build up
30 - Fiery Embrace
32 - Tough
35 - Energy Transfer
38 - Total Focus
41 - ???
I'm not very familiar with the epic pool sets for a tank... I'm thinking either Pyre Mastery or Energy Mastery.. What do you guys think?
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| 03/06/08 20:36 |
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Epsilon Unit
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Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.30
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php
Energetic Flame: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Energy Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1: Blazing Aura Taunt-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(3), EndRdx-I:50(3), EndRdx-I:50(5)
Level 1: Barrage Taunt-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(5), Acc-I:50(7)
Level 2: Fire Shield EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(7), ResDam-I:50(9), ResDam-I:50(9), ResDam-I:50(11)
Level 4: Healing Flames RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(11), RechRdx-I:50(13), Heal-I:50(13), Heal-I:50(15), Heal-I:50(15)
Level 6: Bone Smasher Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(17), Dmg-I:50(17), Dmg-I:50(19)
Level 8: Consume Acc-I:50(A), EndMod-I:50(19), EndMod-I:50(21), RechRdx-I:50(21), RechRdx-I:50(23), RechRdx-I:50(23)
Level 10: Combat Jumping DefBuff-I:50(A)
Level 12: Plasma Shield EndRdx-I:50(A), ResDam-I:50(25), ResDam-I:50(25), ResDam-I:50(27)
Level 14: Super Jump Jump-I:50(A)
Level 16: Hasten RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(27), RechRdx-I:50(29)
Level 18: Hurdle Jump-I:50(A)
Level 20: Health Heal-I:50(A)
Level 22: Stamina EndMod-I:50(A), EndMod-I:50(29), EndMod-I:50(31)
Level 24: Whirling Hands Acc-I:50(A), Taunt-I:50(31), Acc-I:50(31)
Level 26: Fiery Embrace RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(33), RechRdx-I:50(33)
Level 28: Build Up RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(33), RechRdx-I:50(34), ToHit-I:50(34)
Level 30: Acrobatics EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 32: Kick KBDist-I:50(A)
Level 35: Energy Transfer Dmg-I:50(A), Dmg-I:50(36), Dmg-I:50(36), Acc-I:50(36), Acc-I:50(37), Taunt-I:50(37)
Level 38: Total Focus EndRdx-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(39), Acc-I:50(39), Dmg-I:50(39), Dmg-I:50(40), Dmg-I:50(40)
Level 41: Tough ResDam-I:50(A), ResDam-I:50(42), ResDam-I:50(42), EndRdx-I:50(42), EndRdx-I:50(43)
Level 44: Weave DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(45), DefBuff-I:50(45), EndRdx-I:50(45), EndRdx-I:50(46)
Level 47: Energy Punch Taunt-I:50(A), Taunt-I:50(48), Acc-I:50(48)
Level 49: Focused Accuracy ToHit-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(50), EndRdx-I:50(50), EndRdx-I:50(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
| Copy & Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
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This is a really big damage dealer once you hit Energy Transfer and Total Focus, punching up your BU's you should be ETing for a tremendous amount around 800 i beleive, this is based on a friends build that was very successful at everything, as you prolly see the toggles are End Redux the net end gain is 1.32 without Focused Accuracy and .73 with it i beleive
This is my first hero side build so tear it apart as you wish
Triumph Man Come Join The party:
Epsilon Assassin, lvl 50 spines/regen
Winters-Fury, lvl 50 Ice/Kinetics
EpsiIon Assassin, lvl 29 EM/Ninjutsu
Total Purple Drops: 7 and counting
A good plan violently executed now is better then a perfect plan carefully executed next week.
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| 03/07/08 00:46 |
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LordStarwolf
Posts: 3
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Credibility: 0 pts
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You can't hold agro with burn. It has a fear componant that makes the bad guys run away. Way back in the day fire tanks could level like noboady's business, like a couple levels and hour. This is like around I4 or so. You jump in a group, taunt, throw down burn and kill em by the dozens. The devs thought it was too easy so they nerfed it, gave it the fear factor and made the bad guys run out of the fire immediately. You wont hold any agro with it, won't do much damage with it, since they immediately turn tail and run, and you'll scatter the mobs quick. After the nerfing it had almost no uses. Also its not much use for the immob or stalkers since its a click not a toggle. You can't leave it on as you move around. And it's not got the shortest recharge. By the time you know a stalker is there so you know to throw it down, you'll be hit. And the immob protection is minimal.
Edit: See This discussion on it.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 03/07/08 06:35 |
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eyeronik
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| QUOTE | Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.30
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php
Energetic Flame: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Energy Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1: Blazing Aura Taunt-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(3), EndRdx-I:50(3), EndRdx-I:50(5)
Level 1: Barrage Taunt-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(5), Acc-I:50(7)
Level 2: Fire Shield EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(7), ResDam-I:50(9), ResDam-I:50(9), ResDam-I:50(11)
Level 4: Healing Flames RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(11), RechRdx-I:50(13), Heal-I:50(13), Heal-I:50(15), Heal-I:50(15)
Level 6: Bone Smasher Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(17), Dmg-I:50(17), Dmg-I:50(19)
Level 8: Consume Acc-I:50(A), EndMod-I:50(19), EndMod-I:50(21), RechRdx-I:50(21), RechRdx-I:50(23), RechRdx-I:50(23)
Level 10: Combat Jumping DefBuff-I:50(A)
Level 12: Plasma Shield EndRdx-I:50(A), ResDam-I:50(25), ResDam-I:50(25), ResDam-I:50(27)
Level 14: Super Jump Jump-I:50(A)
Level 16: Hasten RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(27), RechRdx-I:50(29)
Level 18: Hurdle Jump-I:50(A)
Level 20: Health Heal-I:50(A)
Level 22: Stamina EndMod-I:50(A), EndMod-I:50(29), EndMod-I:50(31)
Level 24: Whirling Hands Acc-I:50(A), Taunt-I:50(31), Acc-I:50(31)
Level 26: Fiery Embrace RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(33), RechRdx-I:50(33)
Level 28: Build Up RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(33), RechRdx-I:50(34), ToHit-I:50(34)
Level 30: Acrobatics EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 32: Kick KBDist-I:50(A)
Level 35: Energy Transfer Dmg-I:50(A), Dmg-I:50(36), Dmg-I:50(36), Acc-I:50(36), Acc-I:50(37), Taunt-I:50(37)
Level 38: Total Focus EndRdx-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(39), Acc-I:50(39), Dmg-I:50(39), Dmg-I:50(40), Dmg-I:50(40)
Level 41: Tough ResDam-I:50(A), ResDam-I:50(42), ResDam-I:50(42), EndRdx-I:50(42), EndRdx-I:50(43)
Level 44: Weave DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(45), DefBuff-I:50(45), EndRdx-I:50(45), EndRdx-I:50(46)
Level 47: Energy Punch Taunt-I:50(A), Taunt-I:50(48), Acc-I:50(48)
Level 49: Focused Accuracy ToHit-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(50), EndRdx-I:50(50), EndRdx-I:50(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
| Copy & Paste this data chunk into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MHDz;2966;674;900;|
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&;,49Z/J8RQ#SR[H#@;5+"`79'=F<.RRP-DH18R5*+N6FB>F@E3A/O,3.
*3X2`F@K_5'#U7CAP7SP./A8+31A7/"SRAD[L@O7_9=AFT(F>0QLDNLB&*,X^7=]WO]P9
bigspeer
Posts: 3
Joined: 02/22/2006
Credibility: 0 pts
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Guide for fire/energy melee tanks you ask?
VOILA!
The Hottest Tanks in Paragon: Fiery Aura
PomPoms of Justice
Plugging Holes in the Tanker Primaries
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| 03/10/08 20:08 |
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robot mind
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hey big!
i have not seen you post for a while so it is good to see your awesome info and vast knowledge are once again being used and passed onto others. :)
note: i would post and say stuff but all the things i would of said have been said so...
I'm not a altoholic...no really i only have 1000+ toons...thats not..really...never mind.
Ninja Strike!!!
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| 03/10/08 21:12 |
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eyeronik
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Whoa... Only putting 1 end redux in Fire Shield/Plasma Shield? *Shivers*
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| 03/10/08 21:53 |
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Epsilon Unit
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From what ive seen as a tank in teams end is often not used as rapidly as many think as well as alternating with consume you should have plenty of end, in solo the fights end extremely fast it shouldnt matter, same thing goes for PvP after you get ET and TF
Triumph Man Come Join The party:
Epsilon Assassin, lvl 50 spines/regen
Winters-Fury, lvl 50 Ice/Kinetics
EpsiIon Assassin, lvl 29 EM/Ninjutsu
Total Purple Drops: 7 and counting
A good plan violently executed now is better then a perfect plan carefully executed next week.
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| 03/10/08 23:48 |
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LordStarwolf
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You might think that epsilon, but my Fire/EM tank has major end problems. Granted, hes a scranker, but eye comes from a scrapper background and will probably lean more towards scranking. If you want an agro tank you won't have many end problems, but fire/em doesn't really make a good agro tank.
And eye, on fire and plasma shields, I always go three end redux on both. That's how mine is slotted now. Wouldn't do anything lower than that myself.
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| 03/11/08 06:52 |
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bigspeer
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| QUOTE | | Whoa... Only putting 1 end redux in Fire Shield/Plasma Shield? *Shivers* |
I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but as a general rule of thumb, any toggle power that is a shield or only affects your hero has a minimal endurance cost.
With my ice tank, the cost of running 3 shields (ice armor, wet ice, glacial armor) is less than running either Chilling embrace or icicles alone. You can even get away with not putting any endurance reducers in your shields at higher levels, but you need them more than the def/res at lower levels.
Blazing Aura, Mudpots, Chilling Embrace, Icicles, Invincibility, RttC all have a significant endurance cost which is doubly magnified at the pre-stamina levels. Try fighting a few villains with these toggles active then try it with them off and you'll notice the difference.
And to close, you will save a heaping load of endurance by slotting endurance reducers in your attacks rather than your toggle shields. I always slot my attacks with an endurance and accuracy before anything else.
Big
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| 03/11/08 06:58 |
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pyro master
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| QUOTE | | And to close, you will save a heaping load of endurance by slotting endurance reducers in your attacks rather than your toggle shields. |
this is very true. the toggles will only take .5-1.5 on average per second if you have all of them running, while using a solid attack chain will take around 5-20 per second depending on your AT. this is all un slotted by the way.
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| 03/11/08 15:44 |
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Warron Peace
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Ah, the big key to endurance management. Toggles only slow down your recovery. With a few possible exceptions, most of the time toggles will not cause you to run out of end. They may slow down your recovery significantly, increasing potential downtime, and to reduce that down time, you slot end redux in them.
The bigger killer endurance user is attacks and other click powers (heals/buffs use endurance just as fast as attacks, same with debuffs and controls). By slotting a single endurance reduction into every attack you use regularly, you literally use on average 30% less endurance. That means you'll last that much longer in a fight. My Kat/SR has 3 toggles she runs defensively, each with a single end redux. Having an end redux in each attack, she *never* runs out of endurance. I have yet to come across a situation outside of foes draining my endurance that I've needed to pop a blue to keep the fight up. And recently, I put a second end redux into each toggle (she has so many auto powers that don't merit slotting that everything else is gonna be 6 slotted =D). My downtime between fights is almost non-existant. I can literally recover enough endurance going from one mob to the next that I *never* have to use rest or pop a blue. As a result, I keep a couple of big blues in my tray for end draining mobs, and burn every single small blue inspiration I get as soon as I get it.
So yeah, to reduce downtime, slot end redux in toggles. To increase your ability to keep going in a fight and not sucking wind so often, slot end redux into attacks/controls/heals/buffs/debuffs.
W.P.
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| 03/11/08 19:54 |
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bigspeer
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I think the only thing WP left out of his post was that he's a total l33t badass!
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| 03/12/08 09:13 |
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Warron Peace
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| QUOTE | | I think the only thing WP left out of his post was that he's a total l33t badass! |
+10 Cred Big, you make me feel the love, man! *Hugs Big*
W.P.
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| 03/12/08 13:47 |
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LordStarwolf
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Ok, went and tried the invoke panic/burn idea. I can now report that burn bypasses everything you put on the bad guys. They were even still showing fear on them and they got up and ran. As soon as they got out of the burn they went back to cowering, but when burn hits they are gone.
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| 03/12/08 19:52 |
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asani
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Thats why fire/ice tanks are so popular also burn/ice patch combo.
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| 03/12/08 21:42 |
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Warron Peace
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| QUOTE | | Ok, went and tried the invoke panic/burn idea. I can now report that burn bypasses everything you put on the bad guys. They were even still showing fear on them and they got up and ran. As soon as they got out of the burn they went back to cowering, but when burn hits they are gone. |
Fear effects are broken temporarily every time the being affected is attacked. Since Burn is a DoT Patch, it constantly breaks the Fear effect. Try using an Immob/Hold on them instead. That'll keep them rooted in one place and taking damage from the Burn patch.
Burn was never meant to be a huge damage dealer. The idea behind it was to mitigate damage by inciting Chaos. Originally, the fear effect was left out by accident, and led to people exploiting this error. The biggest error made by the devs was not recognizing this error and letting it be exploited for so long. When they finally went back and fixed the power by adding a fear effect, numerous players complained to no end, because all of a sudden they couldn't exploit this power anymore. Don't get me wrong, players weren't intentionally exploiting the power. The majority of them didn't know or understand that they were, in fact, exploiting an error on the developers part.
All over the tanker boards, Fiery Aura users have repeatedly asked for this power to be changed back to the way it was originally. Before ED, this was not possible, because the power would do way more damage than it was designed to do. Now that ED is in effect, it is possible that the developers may go back to this power and change it back to the way it was originally. It's a matter of how their time is spent, however, and they'd rather spend time discussing new powers, content, as well as fixing any current bugs, than go back and add in a QoL change that wouldn't affect the entire playerbase.
It is my belief that someday the fear effect of the Burn patch will be removed. It's just a matter of time. Be patient, and until then, use it as it was designed to be used, as a tool for mitigating damage by making foes run all over the place, instead of attacking you.
W.P.
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| 03/13/08 12:26 |
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eyeronik
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My problem with putting an end slot in my attacks, is that I lose one accuracy slot. =/ I already notice a missing pattern I have when fighting in Siren's. Especially with Stalkers.
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| 03/14/08 20:05 |
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Warron Peace
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2 Accuracy should do the job for all PvE purposes outside of extreme defense cases such as Paragon Protectors and Cap'n Mako from the STF. For PvP, 2 Accuracy will do just fine against most foes, however, a defense based opponent will be harder to hit. The cure for this lies in two things. One, slot a 3rd accuracy enhancement. This will help alot. In PvP, you shouldn't need the end redux, as fights will usually be short and to the point. The other cure is to take Build Up and slot it for tohit enhancements. Generally I go with 3 slots, 2 Recharge, 1 Tohit. Later on when I can slot Hamidon Enhancements, I'll slot 3 of the Tohit/Defense/Recharge Enhancements, to get the affect of 3 Recharge, 3 Tohit SOs. This will allow you a burst of 10s of increased damage, but also approximately 30% more Tohit, which is enough, generally, to counter most Defensive sets, especially when combined with 2-3 accuracy enhancements in each attack.
If you plan on PvPing with this toon, 3 accuracy and 3 damage is your best bet. For PvE purposes, however, 2 accuracy, 3 damage, and 1 end redux are what you should be aiming for.
W.P.
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| 03/14/08 22:14 |
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Esh
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Close but not quite right on the PvP slotting. The problem with 3 Acc/3 dam is that your powers may hit the first time, but are going to have spend too much time recharging after the initial use. The generally accepted PvP method of slotting, pre IOs atleast, was 2 Acc 3 Dam 1 Recharge. This gave you enough accuracy to not have to worry about it the majority of the time, fully slotted damage, and an edge in recharging your powers quicker then the base. The important thing about this is it allows you to fire off your big powers more often and not have to rely on filler attacks, because you are almost never going to drop someone in your first attack chain unless you are a blaster and they aren't paying attention.
Nine of the five voices in my head say I'm not insane. Majority rules!
Esh, 50 Merc/Dark MM
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Azure Barrage, 50 Empath/Electricity Defender
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| 03/14/08 22:45 |
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