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Aeon

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Scamming

Before I start, I'm not boasting about having just scammed somebody, or anything like that. What I'm trying to start here is a sensible and mature discussion about whether or not scamming is actually as immoral as everyone decides it is ("Its against the EULA" is an example of a bad argument).

Countless times in the past we've seen people both on forums and in game saying about how they've been scammed. These posts are usually met with these two answers, or some variant that means the same.

1) That sucks! Sorry to hear it man! Scammers deserve to die!
and
2) Scamming is dependant on you being stupid. Lol you're dumb.

Both of these, although polar opposites, may both include elements of the truth. I'll start with viewpoint 1.

This reaction is based upon morality and/or sympathy. In the first case, it is argued that scamming is like thieving - which is illegal in real life, but I would be more inclined to say it is more like big companies owning sweatshops. These certainly are not illegal, yet the ethics of the company are brought into question as they pay the workers the minimum amount they can get away with and do not mind who they employ. Likewise, scammers do not care who they scam, and will always pull tricks like putting 35g instead of 35k trying to get it for as low as they can. People who use this viewpoint from the morality standing can be classed like vegetarians in real life - they choose not to like the practice due to some ethical reason.

The second case - sympathy - is a direct attempt at making the "victim" feel like there are people on their side, after having someone scam them - clearly not being on their side. Whether they actually mean what they say is unclear, but, we can give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are actually sincere. This is basically just a sharing of beliefs. People taking this viewpoint can be likened to a priest - they listen and say what they need to say to make the person less upset.

Now, onto the second viewpoint.

This is usually an argument put across as a matter of fact, usually by people more interested in the truth than ethics. This is where I will describe how scamming works.
The scammer tries his best to play on a flaw in the "victim" - whether it be ignorance, laziness or the fact they are in a rush.

a) Ignorance
They prey on the fact that people are unaware of the value of things, or the fact that people would scam and so the scammer offers as low a price as he can get away with.

Ways to counter: Get price checks, see what other people are buying and selling for.

b) Laziness
They prey on the fact that some people just can't be bothered to check that everything is right, and just blindly hit accept. They put something in that looks roughly right, but isn't.

Ways to counter: Always check the other person's trade.

c) Being in a rush
They prey on the fact that the person doesn't have a lot of time. They may cancel a few times, so that the person is really in a rush to hit accept to get the deal through, then after they have deemed enough times have been done, they put something completely wrong in and accept before the other person gets a chance to realise its wrong.

Ways to counter: Don't trade if you don't have time or patience.

Now, in game, by ANet, it is deemed as against the rules. I would say it is very unethical, and a frowned upon way of making money, but should morality govern the way games are played? Or should the game be allowed to reflect real life in that it will teach people to be more cautious both in game, and out of game?

Discuss, in a mature manner please.

05/12/08 16:24

CorruptNinja

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RE: Scamming

Well if they're new to the game, I'll show some sympathy for them. But if they've been playing GW for a Year or so, they should know by now what to look out for, so therefore it's their problem and I say they're stupid for not paying attention.

"People are like slinkies; Basically useless, yet so amusing to watch fall down the stairs."

"No! He would kill you like a small dog. Let your anger be as a monkey in a piñata... hiding amongst the candy... hoping the kids don't break through with the stick!" - Master Tang

05/12/08 16:31

anan saman

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RE: Scamming

that are expensive words you use there, i had a hard time reading that( i'm duthc), but i managed. on topic now.

ok, as you said you can approach this from two side, the noob side and the symphaty side. ill give my points of view:

when you say you are dumb, and you should have paid more attention, it doesn't help one but at all. it may be true but it doesn't help. it only makes to feel the person bad about himself, wich can result in hating the game, or atleast not feeling to well. so in that way, it's not good to say: you are dumb. BUT, when all people say: aahh poor you. and they start giving money, you won't harden. and as the saying goes: Don't take internet seriousely. you can always get it again, so no worrys.

so one way it's bad to say you are dumb, and in an other way it's good. hard time.

but since you stated in your original post: it's like thiefing, and thiefing isn't allowed in real life also. so you already answered wich one i the best ^^

^.~ grtz

thanks to mimori for this nice signature!

if you find big grammar faults in my posts, please pm me to tell me what i did wrong.

OVERCLOCKING - The process of installing high hopes, dumb luck, and several paychecks into a rectangular box which transmits a signal to a screen that displays your fate. The outcome is usually depressing.

05/12/08 16:36

Aeon

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RE: Scamming

Ah, just noticed I left the question at the end a bit open. I'll elaborate on it a bit.

Viewpoint 1 leads to the idea that the game should hold ethics above anything else. With the game having ethics as a high priority, young, impressionable people can be taught about how they should interact with people, but will have no experience of bad situations, such as scams, which are common in real life.

Viewpoint 2, on the other hand, says that the game should hold realism above anything else. With this willingness to show the people about real life scams, and thus teach people how to avoid them, it aims to make people more cautious in real life, and double check everything. However, it also means that people are allowed to scam, and so there will be a lot more people doing it in game, which may seep over into real life.

The question I'm asking is:
Is it better to teach people how they should interact with others, or how to avoid bad interactions?

Feel free to pm me ingame if you have any Qs about what I say or about game mechanics, or just wanna talk random crap :p

Guild Wars
Main IGNs: Megido Hax / X Megido X - Seventy Two Hour [ban]

http://www.playrequiem.com

IGN: Megido, Lintra server

05/12/08 16:39

lani

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RE: Scamming

I consider both viewpoints, that of "aww poor thing" and "haha u stupid" to be emotional rather than based on logic or maturity.

The idea that the second viewpoint is held by people "more interested in the truth than ethics" is absolutely ludicrous.
Why? Simple, it's people jumping on the laugh at someone else's expense bandwagon, not Seekers after the Holy grail of Truth... it's the kid from Simpsons going "Ha ha" in that famous way. Seriously, when did you ever see someone holding to that point of view demonstrate his interest in truth over ethics by first investigating if and how the scam actually took place rather than jumping to the 'U R dumb" conclusion?

Both responses are emotional rather than logical. Both are mature. The first is responding to the "victim"'s need for attention and solace with their own. Community feeling is what it's called. Nothing moral about that, just a survival trait that, contrary to this last centruy's trend towards individualism, has kept the human race from extinction time and again.
The second emotional view I already described above.
A third view, that of people really more interested in facts and truth than ethics or having a laugh at someone's expense, tend to follow a bit later in the threads. They're the posts that try to establish how the scam took place, what means was used and try to advice the "victim" on how to prevent it.

All three types of responses are what the "victim" needs by the way. Regardless of morality or ethics. The solace and comfort of people sympathizing helps, but so does some jack snot going "HA HA" at him/her. The practical advice helps with working through the 'trauma' as well.

Is scamming ethically or morally wrong? Ethically I don't know about. Morally not sure either. I do know it's against the rules and even though you may find that a bad argument, you will find no more mature, amoral, area more steeped in (twisted) logic than contract and fair-use law. In terms of the game it's an offense against- and a breach of the contract, the EULA you agreed to. There's nothing in this world or the next more amoral than law and justice so there's no arguing against that.

In essence scamming is taking advantage of someone's limited capabilities, temporary or permanent, for once own gain. Whether that's wrong or not is a personal choice. It's what made America the great nation it is today though. It's ingrained in the cultural psyche of the nation. It's frowned upon by ArenaNet more because it costs them time and effort to sort out the complaints than anything else.
It's also a self-destructive trait. Why? Because there's no true anonimity in Guild Wars. You scam enough people, it comes back to you.
So it's counter-survival in the long run, which is really the basis of all ethics. What's good for the self/group/race/species long term.

Now run to the hills before Wyat jumps all over my off-the-cuff philosophy with his own :-)

05/12/08 16:51

anan saman

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

says that the game should hold realism above anything else

no, game shouldn't hold realism above anything else. you know the GTA series? if people think that's realism we are doomed. games are made to do stuff that you can't do in real life, so NOT realism.

QUOTE

Is it better to teach people how they should interact with others, or how to avoid bad interactions?

that's a hard question, because stated in my above posts it should be a bit of both. like yin and yang. you must have one , but the opposite to.

wich meens that you need to teach people, but you need to let them experiece it to, because experience is the best teacher.

i must happen like one or two times. not more.not less. then you learn the most. you learn how it feels, you learn how to get back upon your feet and you learn how to prefent it from happening again. the best is answer is a balance between the two.

^.~ grtz

edit: Nice thread you though off! +cred

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

05/12/08 16:53

Aeon

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

The idea that the second viewpoint is held by people "more interested in the truth than ethics" is absolutely ludicrous.

Upon reflection, I agree that was a poor choice of words. A better way to describe what I meant would be "the underlying principles and mechanisms".

05/12/08 16:58

lani

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

Viewpoint 1 leads to the idea that the game should hold ethics above anything else. With the game having ethics as a high priority, young, impressionable people can be taught about how they should interact with people, but will have no experience of bad situations, such as scams, which are common in real life.

Viewpoint 2, on the other hand, says that the game should hold realism above anything else. With this willingness to show the people about real life scams, and thus teach people how to avoid them, it aims to make people more cautious in real life, and double check everything. However, it also means that people are allowed to scam, and so there will be a lot more people doing it in game, which may seep over into real life.

The question I'm asking is:
Is it better to teach people how they should interact with others, or how to avoid bad interactions?

Lets preface this with another question:
Should games teach anything at all?

personally I'd like something in between #1 (too idealistic / utopian) and #2 (what's the point of escapism if you escape to a world more sordid than the real one?), but I also think games should not be out to teach us anything, unless it's like a fact/memory game or Higher Reasoning skills. Above all, not morality. That's too much of a moving target and culturally divergent to 'teach' through a game.

But neither can you have a completely self-regulating community without some kind of rule enforcing authority, especially with Anonymice with an "I paid for this so I have inalienable rights!" attitude. On the other hand, there should be no (in)game-laws either. Should players or their Avatars have rights, say property rights, in game?

Hell no! That would be insta-death of MMOG's.

05/12/08 17:04

lani

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

The idea that the second viewpoint is held by people "more interested in the truth than ethics" is absolutely ludicrous.

Upon reflection, I agree that was a poor choice of words. A better way to describe what I meant would be "the underlying principles and mechanisms".

Meh, you just lugged #2 and #3 together methinks.

05/12/08 17:08

CorruptNinja

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RE: Scamming

I don't laugh at them....I just tell them to pay more attention to what's going on. Of course I tell them that they're dumb for not thinking first, but I also tell them how to avoid that situation if/when it happens again.

05/12/08 17:10

Aeon

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

The idea that the second viewpoint is held by people "more interested in the truth than ethics" is absolutely ludicrous.

Upon reflection, I agree that was a poor choice of words. A better way to describe what I meant would be "the underlying principles and mechanisms".

Meh, you just lugged #2 and #3 together methinks.

Your #3, in my opinion is a hybrid, or subclass of the other 2. An a) you offer advice on how not to, and b) you don't, if you will.
The #3 you mentioned tends to be accompanied with either a feeling of 1 or 2, and so, I would tend to err away from calling it a seperate viewpoint in its own right.

05/12/08 17:14

Aeon

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

Lets preface this with another question:
Should games teach anything at all?

I think, whether the answer to this question is yes or no, it is largely irrelevant. The fact is, almost all, if not all, experiences do teach something. This especially the case in MMOGs, where you are constantly in contact with other people trying to do the same thing as you. Those people will be guided by certain principles (or lack of), and thus, you will be exposed to it, whether or not that was the game's intention.

05/12/08 17:21

-Leppis

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RE: Scamming

Well, i don't call ppl scammers if

-i call to give offers of certain item i'm selling, and someone comes trading with like 100g etc

-i sell something for a certain price like say 100k and someones comes offering with 100g (imo it's still offer as low as it is)

When i do call ppl scammer

-trade like say IDS, but change it into an FDS that is dyed blue

-someone is calling "buying ectos for 5k ea" and then puts it all in g.

Some of you may ask what's the difference in the last claim, and with the past "non scam claims". Well.. imo. if you sell something there's always the possibility of offers, but if you buy something it should stay as it is. As you stated buying it for a certain amount of money.

But.. imo it's still the falt of the fool who goes into these scams. And imo there's nothing anet can do about these, as there is no forcing becouse the opposite has to accept it as well.

(Might have some repeats on this.. quite late here where i live and im sleepy. :|)

PS: Finland should have won the match against Canada!! :(

05/12/08 17:22

lani

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

I disagree, but let me explain. You're a 14 year old kid who got scammed out of your lunch money. You come home in tears and here's the three reactions you'll get:

#1 is Mom's reaction (commiserating, comforting, consoling)
#2 is jerk-of-an-elder-brother reaction (Njahnjahnanjahnjah, sibling rivalry)
#3 is Dad's reaction (Troubleshooting the issue to prevent recurrence)

There's a bit of gender stereotyping in there that tends to hold up pretty well under close scrutiny. You'll find the sibling rivalry response closely matching posters with that psychological archetype.

This isn't to say that either 'Mom' or 'Dad' responses can't contain a "boy are you dumb" thought in the back of their minds. It's just not considered the most important message to convey. You might actually add a #4 as well, exasperated response. "Sigh, not again!". But all this digresses from the more interesting questions I think.

05/12/08 17:23

Aeon

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

I completely see your point, but I still feel that it is better as a classifier rather than an archtype. Although most things aren't clear cut black or white, I prefer to try to set things into 2 areas whenever I can, this being one of them ;).

I definitely agree with your last statement. :P

05/12/08 17:28

lani

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

Lets preface this with another question:
Should games teach anything at all?

Yes and no. Every game teaches, whether the makers set out to have it do so or not, as experience and interaction teach. Talking real life experience here, in-game experience says nothing about how much you've learned.
But yes, all games teach. They teach abstract thinking, trouble-shooting, copying that which works, cooperation and interaction. But these are all by and large side-effects of playing. What I'm really aiming at is should games educate us? On abstract matters such as ethics or morality, not the lesson that if you mindlessly repeat a certain set of actions by rote each and every day for several hours, you will one day reap an epic reward of which governments around the world are no doubt ecstatic about being taught to the working classes. And Marx thought Religion was Opium for the People... :-)

Should a game ~~teach~~ try to educate us about what is good and bad? Are game designers qualified to do so? Movie makers (Blowing stuff up is not the solution to everything, hmkay?) have shown that they aren't. I think they should stick to teaching the first rule of crime, Thou Shalt Not Get Caught.

05/12/08 17:37

Chrisworld

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RE: Scamming

+Cred Aeon

I have been in situations where i was almost scammed, several times i was in these situations but i take the points you mentioned, unlike most people i guess i'm smart to actually take the time to check for scammers. I have been called a scammer before, i was selling something and 5 people responded. Of course i could only chose one person so basically all the other 4 Sour Puss's decided to spam "(My Char Name Here) Is a scammer!!!!!111!1! ONE ONe ban report ban" I was actually scammed a long time in Diablo 2, the guy full blown scammed me with the cancle trade and repoen with "similar icon but different mods" sort of deal. We then got into a huge fight and he laughed at me. Then he told me these words. "never trust anyone, did you learn you lesson? I am teaching people" HA! I'm sure you know what my response was. It wasn't "Oh thanks for lesson" thats for damn sure.

Back on topic:

I think it's no good, i think arena net is right to put it as an action thats against the EULA terms and those little sly jackasses should be caught and punished. I'm saying 3 Strikes your out deal. 2 Suspends, 3rd a Ban. If they don't learn the first 2 times then there gone. Nuff Said.

EDIT: Aeon we should also talk about dropping items on the ground, should someone else get it... and if thats bad/fair game/aganst the EULA that sort of thing, next thread idea perhaps?

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Gameamp Guides [AMP]

05/12/08 18:10

HackingHippie89

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RE: Scamming

meh "scamming" happens plain and simple, mind you...i didnt read the entire OP but ive been scammed several times, the worst being for 20 ectos, wasnt paying attention and let someone give me 9.6k instead of 96k...got a bit pissed but i should have paid better attention and when it comes down to it...it is just a game

05/12/08 19:21

The Guardian of Amp

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

...got a bit pissed but i should have paid better attention and when it comes down to it...it is just a game

Amen, you hit the nail on the head Hippie=)

05/12/08 23:16

mriswith

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RE: Scamming

I respect your view on the matter; and in some degree i agree with your statements; the list of how scammers work is an informative piece that will help people to avoid being scammed. There are however 2 lines/paragraphs that i completely disagree with:

QUOTE

Its against the EULA" is an example of a bad argument

Is it? The EULA is made to set rules of conduct to how people should behave and is closely related to the next quote:

QUOTE

Now, in game, by ANet, it is deemed as against the rules. I would say it is very unethical, and a frowned upon way of making money, but should morality govern the way games are played? Or should the game be allowed to reflect real life in that it will teach people to be more cautious both in game, and out of game?

You speak about real life: if someone is scamming in real life they get prosecuted (tax scamming, blackmailing, pyramid trading, forging profit, stealing (pickup topic) etc) when not following the law (aka in the GW sense: the EULA). If scamming and 'stupidity' is a reflection of Real Life; then i must be either really smart or lucky that i havent ran into a scammer.

So yes; in my opinion the creator of the game should govern the way the game is playes concerning things that are prohibited in RL as well. The EULA is made to keep people in line and to avoid a lot of scamming and racism. So if you referr to RL being, in a degree, reflected in-game; then laws should also be reflected in-game.

necromancer all the way

05/13/08 03:54

jaffar_al_kahyet

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RE: Scamming

I would like to start on your statement of "usually by people more interested in the truth than ethics". I think this is slightly over the top, although this person may just be pointing out the truth to them it does not necessarily mean they are uninterested in ethics or think that there is nothing wrong with scamming.

Take a real life situation, a friend who you know was walking in a rough area, which you know they could have avoided, has been mugged. They get home and explain what happened to you. Now either you could say "Oh sh*t man that's crap, sorry to hear it" similar to point 1) you stated. Or, you could say something along the lines of "Oh sh*t man, that’s crap, I guess you know now not to walk in places like that again". But I very much doubt you'd say "You jack*ss why the hell where you walking there? You're an idiot" to someone who's just come back from a possibly traumatic experience. This is the thing, the internet is a harsh place where lack of face to face contact is likely to bring across harsh comments such as that of my third example. Although the person would be likely to feel some empathy towards the person in real life, they are unlikely to display this same empathy on the internet.

Also I think there is another point that you haven't picked up on in why people are scammed, Greed. Take for an example the first time I was scammed. I had been playing Guild Wars for about a month (around the start of factions) and had been saving all my cash I'd made simply by playing the game through. I had finally made enough to buy my dream minipet, a Kuunvang Dragon, so set off to buy him. Eventually I managed to get one for 80k, which was a good price for the time as they would normally sell for 100k easily. This is where my greed kicked in. I decided to sell it again for 100k and then attempt to buy one back at a lower price once more to earn a little cash for myself. I found a buyer for 100k and opened up trade. Now, I was in quite a rush, but not because of time constraints or laziness, but because I was in greed mode and desperately wanted my cash. I accepted the trade for 100 plat and happily walked off. Then realised what had happened, I had accepted 100gold. This was back in the times where 100plat would simply show up as 100 followed by a little platinum symbol, so it was an easy mistake to make, but for me at the time a very costly one.

This links back to a lot of real life scams, a lot of scammers play on the fact that a lot of people will do almost anything if they think they can make a bit of cash for themselves. Of course only one person ever makes this cash, the scammer.

Anyway, nice topic a good discussion to have, and sorry if I missed anything that may have been added ^^

Age of Conan: Aeson ~ Battlescar [PvP-En] ~ Cimmerian Barbarian

Guildwars: Tydus of Ascalon ~ Proud Leader of The Preschool Teaparty Massacre [Opal]

05/13/08 03:59

artex

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RE: Scamming

i agree with your point, i also think it i weird that this stuf is against the EULA

No i don't scam, i just think that people have plenty of time to watch the other persons trade, and use their common sence.

for instance is it considered scamming when i dont pay the current price for an item? i dont think crystallines are pretty , so if someone was selling a req 9 it be worth like 10k to me , would it be scamming if i bought that? its not my fault the person doesnt look up prices

i dot do this , but i do think this shouldnt be banned in any way , trading is getting something you want for something you deem a good trade , if the other person thinks its a good trade too it cant be scamming.

05/13/08 04:27

Lord_of_Darkness

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RE: Scamming

2) Scamming is dependant on you being stupid. Lol you're dumb.

Right on the money.

05/13/08 04:48

Aeon

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

Its against the EULA" is an example of a bad argument

Is it? The EULA is made to set rules of conduct to how people should behave and is closely related to the next quote:

It is actually one of the worst arguments possible, just slightly better than "lolol shut up". If this is the only thing the person can say, it is much more likely the case that they are just brainwashed into saying it, rather than believing it. The entire point of the discussion is whether it should be against an EULA, with decent points for or against. Simply saying "it is against the EULA" bears no relevance on the discussion at hand.

QUOTE

There are legal scams everywhere. In fact, you can see it in the high street - walk in one shop and they have an item, lets say a beer for £1.50. Walk into another shop and they're selling the same beer for £1.90. They are overcharging you, but are you going to go to the police for that? Of course not. Same with stuff at festivals, the same brand of item can sell for about twice as much or even more at a festival because people generally don't leave the site - its still a complete rip off, but definitely not illegal.

05/13/08 13:29

CorruptNinja

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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

I wouldn't say charging .40 more is a scam...Classic example of one are those 'You've been selected to win a free Laptop PC!' Banners, you click it and they make you go through what almost seems like an endless survey, when you get to the end hoping for your PC, you find out you have to sing up for at least 3 surveys which cost about as much as the Laptop altogether.

05/13/08 15:25

mriswith

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Joined: 03/09/2006
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RE: Scamming

QUOTE

True; i agree on that. But there is a slight difference:

Scamming is letting people pay or whatever when they are not aware of the fact they are overcharged.
In a bar a beer is €1.50 An unaware person who has no clue about the beercost in that bar (just for the example... its always written down) comes in and orders the beer gets charged for 2.00. That is a scam since they overcharged to a set price (of the bar iteself).

The example you come up with is due to trading and merchandise. A bar can find it reasonable to charge €1.60 for a beer while the neighbour charges €1.50 for the same beer; the fact that the price differs is more due to things like: rent of the property; amount of visitors on a daily basis, bills for electricuty, water etc. A good running bar will or could charge (unless they want to make profit in an exceeding way) less then a bad running bar. I disco will charge more since they have more expenses then a regular bar (security, dj's etc)

Festivals are a scam; their waterlengthened beer there is not worth €2.50 (what they charge here in holland). You are fixed on the fact that they sell the drinks and you are not allowed to bring anything in (as if that stops people lol). In other words they force people to buy drinks that are overpriced. So in that sense i agree with you.

The point i wanted to make however is not related to the market; it was related to law aka eula.

In the law it says (in every country so there cant be any mistake): you are not allowed to steal. It is written 'somewhere'. It is a rule you live by; the eula states the samewith things like 'you are not allowed to trade RL currency for in-game currency' There are simple rules; there are more complex rules; but because you dont agree with it ot do not find it reason to refrain from an action; should you break it? If you feel stealing is, in your opinion, something you can do; can you say: 'dont tell me the law forbids it because i do not find that a reason'?

Some things, even in games, should be directed by rules. Simply because if they dont; all hell breaks lose. It would become a lawless game where everything is allowed; Runescape died because of it. And when they DID implement an EULA; the game was already dead.

I that sense Arenanet has made, in my opinion, a good EULA and rules of conduct. One of the reasons this game still functions after 3 years while GW was actually a test to see if the concept of 'free of charge' could work.

necromancer all the way

05/13/08 16:24

Jamnog

Posts: 82
Joined: 10/09/2005
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Scamming

I would urge you to read "the vanished man" by Jeffery deaver.

not because its a literary masterpeice (its not) but because it involves a man who uses misdirection, sleight of hand and magic tricks to kill people.

This is a bit of a far cry from the scene of someone snatching away the stack of ecto and replacing it with a shriveld eye.

However both are (according to the ten commandments) a sin.
Theft I believe being more about the act of coveting some one elses stuff than actually mugging them and taking it.
Greed the main cause of theift is the thing to tackle here.

If your intention was to harm emotionally, gain by others loss or if you have no care for the other person then yeah I see it as imorral.
However we are here idolising false gods indulging in sloth, vanity and in some cases I'm not sure we honour our father and mother while playing (two wrongs don't make a right).
Actually looking at the ten comandments they change quite a bit in translation (can of worms unleashed).

Personally I have been scammed for 200 gold by someone who was new to scamming and reported him. regardless of my belief empathy keeps me a nice person because I think nice people make the world a bit more tollerable.
It's when interpretations of the rules set down loose the meaning of the rules that the world becomes the free thinking paradise it is today.

I don't know if I put my opinion forward or made statements that will lead others to decide what my opinion was.

so here is my opinion :

all hail the hypnotoad

05/13/08 17:17

CorruptNinja

Posts: 2
Joined: 02/16/2008
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Scamming

QUOTE

However both are (according to the ten commandments) a sin.

Well, not everyone believes in that. :) Regardless, it's wrong and I do think Anets does a good job *cough* of what a little job they do nowadays *cough*

Though I'd try to keep Religion out of discussions like these ^^ Someone may be tempted to kinda say something bad (me most likely)

I do like this discussion though, interesting to see what people would do/say.

05/13/08 17:43

Hydras First

Posts: 0
Joined: 11/29/2006
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Scamming

I havent read any of the any other posts, but I'm going to post on this topic anyway, mainly because I think its a good topic. Okay, here's my thinking:

First, theres the implusive anger, thinking something like "Whoa, I just got scammed angry anger". Which that is of course, the first reactiong. But after I'm done being angry I...

Second, I'm thinkin "Way to go Jason, getting scammed by someone behind his computer" (I think I remember lani recently posting a picutre about how people with untraceable pictures act like dicks on the internet. 'nuff said with that picture).

Third and finally, I think of how much of a life someone lacks to actually TRICK people over the INTERNET.

So yeah, but if I saw someone that I know get scammed, I'd first be sorry, but then a little while point of the fact you shouldnt get scammed if you understand the basics of pretty much any MMORPG.

So yeah, thats pretty much it. I want to find that picture though

EDIT: found the picture

GENIUS

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

'Sort of' is such a harmless thing to say. Sort of. It's just a filler. Sort of - it doesn't really mean anything. But after certain things, sort of means everything. Like after 'I love you' or 'You're going to live' or 'It's a boy.'
-Demetri Martin

05/13/08 17:51

Tor Den Mektige

Posts: 47
Joined: 10/05/2005
Credibility: 0 pts

RE: Scamming

first of all Id like to say that when people complain about being scammed I just dont respond, because as already stated in the original post its a combination of two issues.

First of all, I think it is immoral to scam, I would never do it. But honestly, if people are in such a rush that they dont double check or they have blind faith in other people who clearly are corrupt (we all are corrupt in some sense, nothing is perfect) well ... then maybe they needed to get scammed to learn a lesson that they can apply in real life. After all, common victims, first of all - its a game ... and second its your own fault for not double checking. .... now im not saying that that scammers shouldnt be dealt with somehow, but enough of this politically correctness stuff that even influences this.

I do honestly feel bad for the people that get scammed, but ... we all live on another day, and we can learn from our mistakes and move on. :) look at the bright side of things, get scammed bad once, it wont happen again ... I got scammed once .. never been scammed again :)

and edit: ... no I dont think it should be bannable to scam. The buyer is required to hit accept, and the trade box even sais now if it has been modified. Anet has done a lot to help people not get scammed, banning scammers is punishing them for other people being stupid.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Account 1: Tor Den Mektige, Account 2: Ching Chong Whi

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