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Aeon

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Spirits

Before I start, here's a disclaimer. If you like Ritualists, get your tears ready now, you're probably going to hate what I say here, so you might as well be ready to Q_Q.

Spirits, whilst a good idea in theory, were implemented in a very flawed way.

Firstly, with their long recharge, casting times, and fixed position, they have to have big effects. Think Shelter, Union, Displacement, Shadowsong, Nature's Renewal, Frozen Soil. By design, to ever be used, they have to be ridiculously powerful, since they can be killed and are then down for ages. This is the first problem with them. No well designed skill should be immensely powerful just because of the drawbacks in the mechanics behind it. This is the sign of a bad mechanic, and in most games, bad mechanics are dropped.
This first problem also makes them very narrow, and so, leads me on to my next point.

Once you have one, you're going to be bringing loads. Since you're going to be immobile anyway, once you've got one, you might as well bring either copies of the spirit so you can replace it if it dies, or multiple spirits so you can sit in them for ages. Versatility wins more matches than raw power, this is why people run builds that have split options. The more of 1 thing you have, the easier it is to counter.

Next, they promote camping. In RA, you always get that rit who says "Stay in spirits plz". I don't understand why its so hard to put them in useful places, but that's the way it is, I guess. Bad players like big effects over versatility, and these same bad players don't know how to place stuff effectively. This drags matches out to ridiculous lengths of time, since Team A with spirits doesn't want to leave them, and Team B without doesn't want to go into them.

How to fix without just removing them?
Lower everything about them. Just as short recharge, small effect hexes are more useful than the bigger hexes, the same sort of thing would get spirits to see some play outside of gimmick builds, and would increase their utility, and decrease the bad play associated with them. Lower their casting times, lower their recharge times, lower their effects. Example:

Shelter 10e, 1c, 8r
Binding Ritual.
Create a Spirit of Shelter with 50-100 health. Allies in range of the spirit can take no more than 10% of their maximum health as damage. Whenever damage is reduced by Shelter, it takes 25 damage.

Rather than being a use once and wait forever to use it again, but have it around forever, this is more of a prot spirit on everyone for 2-4 attacks vs the team, which, in my opinion is a fair trade compared to its stats, and comparing vs its active equivalent - protective spirit. As has been discussed by many people many times, active play should be rewarded more than passive play.

If this were to happen to spirits, they might actually be worth using in balanced teams, and rits might get a job outside of splinter weapon.

05/17/08 11:52

Aeon

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RE: Spirits

Hmmm, I'll just assume the people who like spirits as they are are too busy wiping the tears out of their eyes to comment... :P

Since ANet are making a smaller amount of skills for GW2, I think they need to seriously think about the spirit mechanic before they add it, anyone agree or disagree?

Feel free to pm me ingame if you have any Qs about what I say or about game mechanics, or just wanna talk random crap :p

Guild Wars
Main IGNs: Megido Hax / X Megido X - Seventy Two Hour [ban]

http://www.playrequiem.com

IGN: Megido, Lintra server

05/17/08 14:16

Hardstrike

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RE: Spirits

So if I get it right,
compared with the casting times, immobility, and long recharge you say their effects should be buffed. Or that the 'reqs' should be lowered (energy/casting time etc).

I disagree with that, If you get ritual lord as your elite you got a quite a spammable spirit build. Spirits are strong as they are. In RA its useless to go killing the spirits because the next one is up before your done. So I don't see why it needs a buff. but thats just me eh

05/17/08 14:27

Cocky Rocky

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RE: Spirits

1 sec cast is a little quick i would only have them one spirits like bloodsong/pain other effects are still a little strong to have on such a low cast time.I agree tho they need shorter cast times/power all around no longer than 3 for any spirit really. With quicker cast times a lot of skills than need a spirit for the full effect (mend body, spirit light) will be a lot more versatile.

05/17/08 14:29

Aeon

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RE: Spirits

QUOTE

I'm saying spirits, as they are are ok. But, to make them actually useful outside of gimmicks and RA, everything should be lowered - the cast time, recharge and their effects. (Having the same effects on lower recharge would be imba)

05/17/08 14:30

Aeon

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RE: Spirits

QUOTE

They need a lower cast time so they're not just DShot bait, although 1 sec is easy to interrupt. They also need a lower recharge so that they are more reusable so they don't restrict your mobility.

05/17/08 14:33

Hmadavari

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RE: Spirits

Im really big fan of ritualists.

And I think spirits are pretty well balanced. They are usually called "UBER" (in RA) only because people are too lazy to bring some counter. Spiritual pain = spam damage. Gaze of fury = make enemy cast spirits for you. Consume Soul = your enemy heals you. Swap is both cool and fast way to ruin spirit spam.

And most people i see complaining in RA about spirits are warriors and assasins with 6 attack skills and 2 damage/as improve skills.

Soon... Or never.

05/17/08 14:51

MorveAeris

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RE: Spirits

QUOTE

Example:

Shelter 10e, 1c, 8r
Binding Ritual.
Create a Spirit of Shelter with 50-100 health. Allies in range of the spirit can take no more than 10% of their maximum health as damage. Whenever damage is reduced by Shelter, it takes 25 damage.

Spiritual Pain and Unnatural Signet would annihilate these spirits with health that low.

05/17/08 15:02

Hijaru Ta

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Joined: 07/31/2007
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RE: Spirits

i like them the way they are. you just have to know how to play them.
for example, in PvE just take the kurzick skill Summon Spirits with you, and painful bond, and a handfull of spirits. Position yourself and the spirits behind the team (even behind the monks and eles, because spirits have longbow range)
The fight is over fast, as always in PvE, then use summon spirits.
I cleared whole areas, with only the spirits i summoned at the beginning of an area.
I haven't played them much in PvP, but in AB (which i mostly play) you can position them at the shrines, spread out a little (AoE kills them fast =[)

Not only can you use spirits for full spiritbuilds, but also pretty awesome rit healing builds. Bloodsong and Pain are the most fit for this,as they last the longest, and Bloodsong will steal health and keeps him alive a lot longer. A good healing rit build won't last good without spirits. Yes they die soon, so let the enemy waste their time on killing the spirit, while you create a new one, and your team allies will kill the enemy.

so i said my word, just want to add one more thing.
They're freaking awesome, and fun to play with.

I respect your opinion about them though, and i agree with the recharge time. However, i see them as necro minions, only with moving issues and how many you can use at the same time. They do have nice effects, can do damage like minions, and can protect you from harm while you're ressing someone =]

GW.IGN: Hijaru Ta
CoH.IGN: Hijaru

05/17/08 15:04

Aeon

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RE: Spirits

QUOTE

Spiritual Pain and Unnatural Signet would annihilate these spirits with health that low.

First off, how many people use those now? Apart from nobody...

And, since thats a 1-3 hit kill, people still wouldn't bring them.

So, erm, how about, not giving narrow counters to stuff, and talk more broadly about the mechanics?

Oh, and lol at when people say "you just need to know how to use them" - pretty sure I know.
What I'm saying is, as part of a balanced build, with the current long recharges and cast times, they are very close to useless. If everything about them was decreased (effect, cast time, duration, recharge, etc) so that a kill on the spirit doesn't completely defeat the point of you being there, then they would see a lot more play, and ritualists wouldn't be expected to just sit there and cast splinter weapon.

05/17/08 15:21

Belshazaarswrath

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RE: Spirits

I think they were designed to be used in only certain situations. But I do agree they could use a little bit of reworking. Maybe if they were mobile they would be a lot more useful. But I don't see that happening.

05/17/08 15:21

Brother Fork

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RE: Spirits

Yes, spirits are VERY immobile.
Aren't they?

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Another thing i have to fix when i notice it tomorrow...

05/17/08 16:45

HackingHippie89

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RE: Spirits

QUOTE

Yes, spirits are VERY immobile.
Aren't they?

You are no longer allowed to speak, first of all if you would look at the OP Aeon is referring mostly to PvP and Draw spirit is ineffective...say youve got 3 spirits on your bar...not unreasonable, it would take 30 seconds to move those three spirits an aggro bubble range...if you pvp at all(which you dont based on your response) you would realize 30 seconds just to reposition 3 spirits is utter shit, not to mention with 30-45 second recharges any time a spirit that is effective(union/shelter/blocking one/) are going to be killed 0-5 seconds after they are cast (if a mesmer or ranger doesnt interupt your 3 second cast time) which means unless youve got tons, and tons, and tons of spirits which is a gimmick(rit spike, sway) they are not going to be effective

Meg's suggestion is very reasonable, it would give rits a job in pvp other than splinter, splinter, splinter, splinter, aragespike, splinter, splinter, splinter

take his example of shelter
Shelter 10e, 1c, 8r
Binding Ritual.
Create a Spirit of Shelter with 50-100 health. Allies in range of the spirit can take no more than 10% of their maximum health as damage. Whenever damage is reduced by Shelter, it takes 25 damage.

Assuming rits became "spirit spammer" roles in midline gvg id assume they would ahve 3-5 spirits, (2-3 offensive 2-3 defensive) 2-3 party heals/supports(if not more spirits) and whatever for an elite, this is looking to be a communing/resto bar and of course you would need spirits with spawning power so maybe a bar with atts as follows

14-15 communing(depends on breaking points)
10 spawning
10 restoration

spawing would give 40% more health to spirits so 40 more health to 100 health spirits for a total of 140

one warrior would typically be assigned to "spirit control" unless mesmers would be forced taking unnatural signet of spirtual pain(probably the former) either way assume a warrior does 30-40 dmg per hit to a spirit thats 4-5 hits, with a rit pumping out 1 second CC spirits thats rather fair if you ask me as it would take 2-3 seconds to drop a spirit

Now, assume the meta shifted and mesmers brought spiritual pain, average dom mesmer runs 14 which is 71 dmg off US(unnnatural sig, try to keep up) which is two casts of US to drop an average spirit(more if rits decide to bring 14 spawn 10 communing 10 resto) with mesmers usually running 14 dom 11 insp 9 FC there would be a 27% casting reduc time of unatural sig putting it at around .75 second cast time, two of those is 1.5 seconds to kill a spirit....probably closer two 2 seconds, which is precious time a mesmer could be watching to stop a b-surge or diversion/shame a monk

overall, i think spirits would benefit greatly from a re-work, it would benefit both pve and pvp(in pve you wouldnt have to sit a minute between mobs to let your skills recharge, in pvp rits would actually be playable)

05/17/08 20:59

Skippz

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Joined: 02/11/2007
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RE: Spirits

No I do agree with this, I don't like rits I find it one of the most lame classes ever.....seriously. It's good support.....ok but realistically if you want healing you get a monk! And if you want support you get a rit because weapon spells can't be removed, that's all dandy and well (though I still think they're utter tripe) then theres CHANNELING!!!!!! Which deals jack all damage! Theres only a couple spells worth using the ones that deal decent amounts of damage have 2 second cast times, they're pretty weak and their recharge on the skills esp the heavy hitters are just omfg :/ (this was probably the lame ass rit spike.....I know....but still) I know some skills are easily spammable one espcecially with it's constant recharge if you have an item in hand.....but it sucks

and of course then theres communing with it's high energy costs and it's amazingly crap use time and recharge time! Now if you do things right and you have decent spawning then the health on that spirit isn't all that bad! It does take quite a bit of wacking to get it down.......but then when it's down you've got like 20 seconds of being a useless lemon (lemons are actually pretty useful but w/e su)

Signature Made By Blazings! <3

05/18/08 02:48

Hmadavari

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RE: Spirits

I dont get the point of this discussion.
About PvP (RA)
noraml spirit spammers dont need allies to stand always near spirits. Fact that spirits have long range allow to put one spirit, go forward, put one more and so on. As long as there atlest 2 other spirits in range casting new one wont be a problem. I dont think that spirit spammers ruin PvP.
In other aspect of PvP other ritualist are usually better (exept HB). By their nature defensive spirits need to be used in places with a lot of allies (AB or PvE, sometimes HA), offensive ones in places with no or few intelligent foes (HB, PvE). It is used in RA because very often foes there are not intelligent enough to bring atleast some universal counter (like condition remove and anti-knockdown)
In PvE spirits are one of the most powerful things. Almost any non-boss single target can be killed there by spirit spammer in 2-5 seconds. For example, norn championship, any solo quests were your skills are not replaced and best of all, challenge missions. Like remains of saljhalla and shadow nexus. Shadow nexus is place were you can realise true potential of spirits.
2 groups of 2 Rts with different spirits. Each group can take one rift down in 5-10 seconds after spirits are cast.

Soon... Or never.

05/18/08 03:36

jaffar_al_kahyet

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Joined: 12/28/2006
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RE: Spirits

QUOTE

Yes, spirits are VERY immobile.
Aren't they?

That is an utterly cat response to this topic. He was refering mainly to their use in PvP, and one of those skills is PvE only and the other one is utter crap to use and a waste of a slot. Think before you try to be sarcastic, if you had put it across without trying to be sarcastic and sounding like a jerk it wouldn't have been so bad.

Back to the main point I think you are putting a very good arguement accross here Aeon, this is genuinly what I've been begging for since I started playing ritualist, and have even had discussions amongst my friends about it. Lowering everying would be the perfect way to actualy make spirits useable outside of certain PvE areas, I'd much rather have a more regular output of dispensible spirits than a small group of them which when dead take over a minute to reapply. I can certainly agree with most you say here.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

Age of Conan: Aeson ~ Battlescar [PvP-En] ~ Cimmerian Barbarian

Guildwars: Tydus of Ascalon ~ Proud Leader of The Preschool Teaparty Massacre [Opal]

05/18/08 03:54

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