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PanzerEXE
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First let me warn you, this is a small rant.
I've played CoX on and off for about 3 years now. At first, I always played my Katana/Regen Scrapper, because he had great survivability and decent damage; however, once I switched over to playing villains more, my Thugs/Dark Mastermind completely engulfed most of my game time. I took him all the way to 50 (before VEATs came out, so it never unlocked them.. what a shame) until he was deleted by my idiot little brother. But that's besides the point.
On my Mastermind, I contributed absolutely nothing to the team that a Corrupter or Dominator my level couldn't easily add themselves. All I could give was damage, some debuffs, and a couple of meatshields. Yes, I knew what I was doing, and I could solo on relentless quite easily, but it never really got fun. First off, it took about 2 minutes just to set my pets up.
Well, I was thinking about it, and almost every class in the game has something that the Mastermind lacks.
So, in spite of this, why is it the most popular class?
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| 05/30/08 13:59 |
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Phase_of_Echoes
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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Overrated? Maybe. I guess that depends on your taste for the game.
They are the first of their kind. An Archetype with controlable pets. No other archetype can do that so it makes a new and interesting to approach playstyle within the game. I'm sure there are some things they could have done diffrently with them. Everyone has their own opinion on how it should be. Personally I took the Traps set because it gave me away to contribute more damage. With Trip Mines I can take out a whole mob without having to summon my henchmen. Takes a while but its hilarious.
When COV first came out I said there is noway I am going to enjoy using that Archetype. Man was I wrong. The little group I run with got to talking one day about making a full team of Master Minds. Taking it from a joke to reality we dicovered how great it really was. Now here we are today and the Rogue Isles have become a stomping ground for The Devastators which is now home to many Ampers.
COH has Defenders and Controllers and they use the same buffs for the teams. To me I don't see that being much diffrent than Corruptors and Master Minds.
The Master Mind Archetype could be the door way to new Archetypes involving pet control. In the future I can see 1 of 2 things happening. Either COH will get a Commander Archetype with controlable underlings, or Controllers will get over hauled. Allowing them to be accessable much earlier and they will be controlable.
Could I be wrong? Sure. I have no problem with that, but from what I seen so far and all the changes they are making don't be suprised if one day someone will look through the Forums and say man look at that Phase was right.
Hey, it could happen.
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| 05/30/08 15:20 |
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Grifter0408
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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Overrated, overrated I dont see...any class in this game that is overrated would be scrappers and stalkers. They are pure damage dealers...but they have nothing special that a blaster, brute, tank, or any high damage class can do. Yes I know the Grif said his precious scrappers could be overrated.
If you wanted to over anything on MM's it would be power. Like you stated they can easily run missions on the max difficulty, take on nearly any crowd with not much of a problem. If your secondary has healing, forget about it, as long as you can keep your endurance up and your minions together nothing can stand in your way. Maybe a Hero...eventually your going to need more damage then most likely you can produce.
When I started out in CoH I tried the range, support classes of blasters, controllers, and defenders. I couldn't do it, too low damage early on to help me push through the levels. Sure the ideas of pets was great but I floated to the awesome scrappers. I solo'd a great deal of the game but when I came over to CoV, something was different. The 1st character I created was a stalker. Didn't enjoy it, wasn't having any fun. So I considered the MM and loved it, before the Devastators were ever formed I had Merc/Devices that I took to 38 before I became sidetracked w/ a Thug/Dark. Now that is my main villain. I love the damage I deal but I also have the ace up my sleeve to increase survivability through my healing.
No not overrated, the Yankess, they are overrated. Duke, overrated...see where I am going with this.......
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| 05/30/08 15:47 |
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HarrowKnight
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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It's a dance.
For the player that truly enjoys the mastermind AT, it revolves around the interaction with your pets in mid battle. It is being a field commander and support at the same time.
I found myself drawn to the MM from years of playing Necromancers, Enchanters and Mages in Everquest. I was a pet nut. I love pets.
Plus, above and beyond every other class, MMs have the ultimate get out of jail free card with pet suicide. Send in the pets and run away.
**OMG, I need a spell checkr ***
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 05/30/08 15:53 |
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Mzzkc
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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Reason why MMs are awesome and not overrated:
Alright, see, I was on my Robo/Storm the other day, you know, just fartin' around. Let me tell you, fartin' around can get boring fast. I was on Freedom, naturally, and Viv had just invited me to the GN, so I was like "Cool," and stuff. So I said to Viv "Yo, VV, what you say 'bout us two duoin or whatev', yo." and she got all like "Sure, Mzz. Let's do this stuff."
Then we did all them talkies at the begginin' of the Midnighter's Club arc. After that we went over to PO and did that relic finding mish with the pretty caves and catacombs and stuff. It was her mish so we were, like, playing on Villainous (one level higher than me), instead of Relentless, which is the difficulty I was set too, cause I'm an MM and by level 15 all MMs should be playing on Relentless, ya hear?
So, while I Snow Storm the Lt. or Boss she goes and does her Widow thang to it while I deal with all the minions and keep everyone nice and healed and filled with blues. Sometimes I had to be like "BLAM BLAM" and help her out and stuff, cause she was hurtin', ya know. Anyway, yo, we finish that mish off and we all level up! It was like "BLING" and we was level 19 and 20, respectively.
So, we go back to Cap and Viv's all like "We gonna do this VEAT mish now cause I want mah costume, yo. Oh, man. Husband Aggro, brb." It was gettin' late, see, and I have the unfortunate privilege of havin' my router stop sending me them packets at 11:00 on weekdays and right then, it was 10:47. So I 'splain it all nice and good like using proper enlishes and whatnot and she goes "He can wait, you're more important to me than my Husband Mzz." I sayz "True dat," and we go into the mish.
So, I'll skip all amazing stuff that happened, what with the complete ownage of everything and all, and get right to the end, y'all. So we were down to final stretch. We had about two minutes to DC and a two hallways full baddies to get through. I had to help update that list for Viv, and fast. So I thought to myself, "I am a Mastermind. That means I'm smart and have plans and stuff. I know, I'll make a plan." And I did. We finished the mish and got through around 30 guys, just in time for me to DC at the Cap loading screen.
True story.
If you want to know how I did something so impossible, the answer is easy. I was playing a Mastermind. We can do so many things other ATs can't do it's not even funny.
Silence is golden. Duct tape is silver.
Click Below for an Explosion!
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| 05/30/08 18:50 |
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Chuck Bronco
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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I'd have to disagree. I have spend the better part of 3 years over on the hero side, but felt the urge to get my dark side on a while back.
I had only played a stalker up into the teens and quite honestly grew bored as well.
The Devastators VG seemed very compelling to me. Not only do I get to team with some great ampers on a regular basis but I get to learn a lot about the other half of the game I pay for. Granted, the Devastators are a Thug MM only VG but I have had several opportunities to play on PUGs.
With the Devastators its like hell on wheels, non stop action, but PUGs is where I really learned to hone my talents as a MM. The equip and upgrade time is nothing but a temp timeout and allows my fingers to rest a bit :D> Just the other day I learned how immobilizing and deadly the Poison trap can be in conjunction with Acid mortar in the middle of mob while working with a PUG. I utilized this on almost every mob we encountered. We whipped through about 5 mishs in not time at all.
I wouldnt call them "overrated" I would classify them as "Highly Versatile". For me it works great, I can solo till other Devs come on or pick up the random invite. No matter what, Im having fun. LVL 30 (Thugs/Traps) so far after a relatively short time for me and lookin forward to the next 20 when I can make my next villain. Havnt decided what to go with next. Perhaps one of those random PUGs will show me the way.
Oh, and I forgot.........mad props and respec to Mzz for that funny as hell post.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
Tank'ns my Bidness and Bidness is GOOD!
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| 05/31/08 00:08 |
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Techbot Red
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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EVERYONE loves a good villain in stories/films/games, right? Some massive evil-doer with a mad horde at his fingertips. And, in CoV, we get to play one and, this is the good part, the good guys dont always win!
Techbot ALPHA, lvl 30 at present, bots/traps MM, mental miniature mechanical meglomaniac. If a fight goes wrong, he legs it, and lives to fight another day, with another horde of robotic minions. I've only got him to 30 recently after quite a long while, but thats entirely my own fault, and its easier to lvl with the exp smooth.
Pure and simple, MMs are different. Stalkers and Scrappers kind of match up, with the Stalkers being more squishy but also more stealthy. Blasters can deal horrendous damage, which Corruptors seem to match fairly well. Brutes do tend to win over Tankers, but not always, I think that was my build >.> And controllers and dominators can duke nearly anyone to a standstill.
Then theres MM's. They are a pain for tanks to deal with, scrappers cant fight the mob, blasters get swamped, controllers can hold the boss but that doesnt stop the minions braining em and defenders...well, I've never fought them =]
So story wise and technical wise, MMs have a lot to offer. Its all down to personal tastes really.
Now move, fleshlings, I have a world to conquer!
-Techbot Out-
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| 05/31/08 06:35 |
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PanzerEXE
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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Not necessarily. The MMs weakness in PvP is AoE attacks lets say I have an AoE attack that deals 80 damage to everyone around the MM. Each henchman would take 90 damage (80+10 from bodyguard) and you would take 20 damage (0+10 from body guard). Use an attack like this frequently, and all of the MMs pet are gone. A MM with no pets is a dead MM.
Controllers can also take MMs rather well. Most Controllers have at least 2 AoE holds by level 26. Lets use my Illusion/Storm Troller for example.
1) run in (steamy mist + ss make me invisible)
2) hit Flash, mezzing everyone unless the MM has mez protection
3) hit Blind (only if the MM has mez protection)
4) drop a Spectral Terror
5) put Snow Storm on the MM
6) drop a Freezing Rain
7) summon my Phantom Army
8) Summon my Phantasm
9) Hit Hasten
10) repeat, and attack with Spectral Wounds
Freedom
James Iscariot- Level 35 Illusion/Storm Controller
Arbiter Darkwind- Level 33 Thugs/Dark Mastermind [R.I.P.]
Jerimoth- Level 33 Super Strength/WillPower Brute
Pinnacle
Darkwind Mk II Thugs/Dark Mastermind [Member of the Devastators]
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| 05/31/08 10:41 |
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Epsilon Unit
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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MMs overrated thats new, although i absolutely love my stalkers and well, yea, MMs were the first AT i played and i loved it, my first was a Robo/FF, which is pretty fun and extremely tough to beat once you get to 38, although i havent gotten that far since i got preoccupied with stalkers, now MMs have healing mods that compete with the corruptors heals as well as the fact that they do in most instances deal more damage, MMs if i were to relate them to any heroside AT would be tanks although you could argue that they relate more to many other ATs, the fact being that they can debuff far more then most villain side ATs, in some cases deal more damage and survive longer then a brute since the Npc aggro is on their pets and not them, and the pets are disposable, as well as having in some cases defenses that range from 50% to 30% without IOs,
@Decendant Death
Did they just decide that the CD drives are to be used as cup holders now? - Klaw
PvP Toons: All 50
Epsilon Assassin EM/NiN- Moving to Freedom
Epsilon Assassin Spines/Regen-Triumph
Shivering Fire Fire/Cold-Triumph
Current/Future Projects:
Betrayed Soul LX Dark Blast/Pain Corruptor-Triumph
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| 05/31/08 13:06 |
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HarrowKnight
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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Ah, yes, but a necro/dark has at least 3 holds and a couple immobs they can use as well as what their lich can do.
And let me tell you, 'fear' works VERY well in PVP.
I leave my zombies hiding and just use my grave knights and lich. If I have time in the beginning, I'll even call out Smokey the Dark Servant.
All in all, the enemy gets pretty torn up pretty quick. The thing I like the most about bodyguard mode is that if they attack my Lich first, I can freeze them. And if they attack me first, HE can freeze them. Either way, my Knights run in a whackadoodle.
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| 05/31/08 13:10 |
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Epsilon Unit
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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Also to add that some pets have the ability to crit' just like a scrapper, ive had both my Grave knights crit 1 poor lonely defender with disembowel was like whoa....
@Decendant Death
Did they just decide that the CD drives are to be used as cup holders now? - Klaw
PvP Toons: All 50
Epsilon Assassin EM/NiN- Moving to Freedom
Epsilon Assassin Spines/Regen-Triumph
Shivering Fire Fire/Cold-Triumph
Current/Future Projects:
Betrayed Soul LX Dark Blast/Pain Corruptor-Triumph
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| 05/31/08 13:22 |
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BishopDon
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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| QUOTE | Not necessarily. The MMs weakness in PvP is AoE attacks lets say I have an AoE attack that deals 80 damage to everyone around the MM. Each henchman would take 90 damage (80+10 from bodyguard) and you would take 20 damage (0+10 from body guard). Use an attack like this frequently, and all of the MMs pet are gone. A MM with no pets is a dead MM.
Controllers can also take MMs rather well. Most Controllers have at least 2 AoE holds by level 26. Lets use my Illusion/Storm Troller for example.
1) run in (steamy mist + ss make me invisible)
2) hit Flash, mezzing everyone unless the MM has mez protection
3) hit Blind (only if the MM has mez protection)
4) drop a Spectral Terror
5) put Snow Storm on the MM
6) drop a Freezing Rain
7) summon my Phantom Army
8) Summon my Phantasm
9) Hit Hasten
10) repeat, and attack with Spectral Wounds |
This sounds like a solid theory...however, you fail to realize that my MM has more fire power than your Troller :) My Thugs are on the field of battle, all 6 of them. Then I can summon my Dark Servant.
Now, to get a little more interesting...both myself and my DS can entangle your entire horde in some Tentacles...no forward movement..or moving at all. I can drop some Tar Patch, slows down your movement and lowers your damage Res (and with my Thugs opening a Can of Whoop Arse the whole time). Then I can hit a Fearsome Stare, which can hold our guys at bay as well, including you...no attacking for you. Darkest Night on you will lower the Acc and Dam of all your pets, including yourself. Now, remember, during this whole time, my Thugs have torn through your entire pet core or just took you down, as that would be my directive for them. Cut off the head and the body falls...
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| 05/31/08 19:38 |
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PanzerEXE
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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Maybe.
PA is invulnerable though.
Plus I will have held you outright from the beginning.
Freedom
James Iscariot- Level 35 Illusion/Storm Controller
Arbiter Darkwind- Level 33 Thugs/Dark Mastermind [R.I.P.]
Jerimoth- Level 33 Super Strength/WillPower Brute
Pinnacle
Darkwind Mk II Thugs/Dark Mastermind [Member of the Devastators]
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| 05/31/08 19:41 |
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Mzzkc
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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| QUOTE | Maybe.
PA is invulnerable though.
Plus I will have held you outright from the beginning. |
That's why any MM worth a damn in PvP carries BFs and has at least some level of mez protection. The only time I've ever had a problem with a troller in PvP as my Ninja/DM is when I was either messing around with them for kicks (trollers are a jumpy lot in PvP, lots of fun to be had there, especially when they can't see you), or trying to take out the Sigs. Otherwise they're pretty easy to deal with after you pop the BF and kill their Acc, Damage and Speed. Drop enough mez effects to break their protection and they're free game (unless they've got BFs, in which case they'll run away). A few swats from my Ninja's and it's Game Over.
I've got some really cool PvP stories (I PvPed on a team with Cricket against the Devs for crying out loud), but I think I'm developing CTS so I'm taking a break from the compy for awhile.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
Silence is golden. Duct tape is silver.
Click Below for an Explosion!
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| 06/01/08 13:24 |
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BleakHorizon
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| RE: Why MMs are overrated. |
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The Mastermind being over-rated... mm, I would think that's largely a matter of opinion, rather than statement of fact. Personally, I find brutes to be over-rated, and I see more of them around on Champion than I do MM (although it's a VERY close contest.) But that's because I like the complexity and in-depth game experience the MM provides. While I've always enjoyed being in melee combat in any game, if I can be, my characters tend to be complex and elaborate, usually bordering on insane, that'll never work type builds that require the utmost skill and precision to work properly. Why? I like the challenge.
I don't mean to imply that it's challenging to run into a solo relentless mish and unleash my thugs, all suped up with three types of force-fields, on my unsuspecting prey. No, that's easy. What I mean is that it's challenging taking my thugs into a 4-man relentless mission after kindly booting the other three out of my group and THEN solo'ing the mission. Controlling the suicidal arsonist who thinks he'll out-tank my bruiser, and controlling my bruiser who thinks he's a better ranged-attacker than my enforcers. Keeping both enforcers positioned so that their massive number of cone and aoe attacks hit the largest number of enemies possible while still giving the other 4 henchmand (and each other) their leadership buffs, while making sure they're all positioned properly for Supremacy and MY leadership buffs, my Dispersion Bubble, my Force Bubble (when applicable), and making sure they're all hitting the proper opponent(s), not to mention making sure they don't run off chasing the enemy that just deciding to make a beeline for the back of the base, and that they save my sorry ass when the Longbow Ballista jumps me.
Then of course there's the ever-present issue of endurance conservation, because at any given point in time, I have 5 toggles active with no passive form of endurance recovery (I can't justify 3 slots for 1 power I'll use and 2 novelty powers), a problem which isn't an issue with the way they're slotted except for when minions start to die (or I'm fighting an elite boss or two bosses, in which case chaining knockdowns becomes an important part of the strategy in addition to all of the above). Endurance conservation becomes a bigger issue still when I have to taunt stuff off a minion to save them (presence + personal forcefield ftw) or worse, when minions start to die while I'm overwhelmed.
The sheer complexity of the challenge, of figuring out how I'm gonna solo (or duo, if my sister is playing) Positron or Valkyrie at hero rank... This is what is so alluring (at least to me) about the class. I've never PvP'd with it, but truth be told, even without a self heal, with a couple of break frees, a few respites, and a little time to prepare before the battle begins... I can't see myself being outright destroyed. Beaten, maybe, possibly, but any given battle would be epic, in my own opinion.
I'm also a sucker for action. As a brute, or a stalker, or a corrupter... I run into a dungeon, face groups of 3, maybe 4 opponents, and the fights are rather dry. Swing my fist, clap my hand, stomp my foot... pause... get hit by 4 gunshots, 3 miss me, and there's a hand grenade that just went past me. Repeat. It seems to monotonous and lacks any real comic-book thrill.
My mastermind, however, never has a dull fight. Most groups I face number close to 10, the enemies are all higher level than me, and my minions' attack patterns are never the same two fights in a row. There's always plenty of action, lots of danger, and enough adrenaline to keep the game interesting and exciting.
Now, looking away from the excitement and/or roleplay aspects of the characters and focusing solely on the power-gaming aspects of the game (my least favorite, but hey, it's out there, and seemingly the most popular method of gaming)... The mastermind definately offers an array of benefits that the other AT's do not, and they excel in these areas.
First and foremost, I strongly believe the MM to be a better, more competent tank than the brute. With the Presence powerset and my forcefields, my minions on follow/defensive, and a nice, courageous "CHARGE" attitude, I can aquire and maintain aggro throughout the entire fight, have only 1 or 2 hits actually land (all of which is spread out across my minions), and can easily maintain my health with respites, saving groupmate's endurance for attacks or emergency heals. I can take direct shots from ArchVillains, and with the damage spread out, have enough health left on myself and my minions that my sister's AoE heal as a Rad/Rad corrupter returns us all to full health, and respites can help mitigate the short time between heals when necessary. Maybe I've simply never run with a VERY good brute, but in every group I've ever run with that contained a brute, my minions and I still remained the focus of aggression more than 90% of the time. We have less HP, in the classic sense, but if our damage is spread out across 7 targets, the weakest having say, 600 hp, the strongest 1200, the enforcers 800, and myself say, 750ish (granted, these are approximations that vary by level and your set pieces / accolades...) ... that puts me at 5350 hp, as long as my minions stay within supremacy and in bodyguard mode. Of course, I can spread that out, seperate my minions, rely on only a few for HP and then swap their roles out as needed, allowing me to choose WHERE my damage goes and who takes it.
Second, we're the only villain AT (to my knowledge) with FF or Poisons, giving us two very, very nice secondary sets that offer great support skills for group scenarios that any group would be glad to have on their side. I've never once heard a corruptor or a stalker get pissed off that they had +15% defense to damage types but psionic, +15% to Melee and Ranged, plus the additional +12.5ish% vs Melee, Ranged, all dmg types (including psionic) of my dispersion bubble, and the various status resists that are added into each of them.
If this isn't enough, the MM is the only reliable AoE damage. Granted, we aren't LITERALLY AoE damage, but we're the only AT that can hit 7 different enemies, each in a different direction (and as much as 20 or more feet away) simultaneously. While other AT's have a few skills here or there for targeted of pbaoe damage, we have the most versatile split-target damage. Will enemies die EXTREMELY quickly this way? No...but in a large group, splitting the targets up to wear multiple targets down while the high-damage characters mop them up actually speeds things up rather than slow them down, at least in my experience.
Now, with all of this said, I'm not trying to sell anyone on the idea that the MM is the "best" or that it's "overpowered" or any such thing. My point is simply that you cannot win an arguement (at least with me) in which you state the MM is overrated, everything is better, period. If you don't like the AT, that's cool, I can completely understand that and relate. But there is a definate REASON we are so popular. =P
~Bleak
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| 06/02/08 04:43 |
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