GameAmp: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

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Grifter0408

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Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

More Scrapper changes made on Test with today's update:

*MoG, Elude, and Light Form now have a duration of 180 seconds and base recharge of 1000 seconds. Doing this prevents Perma powers.

*Elude now offers Recovery Boost

*MoG wares off, heroes will be unable to regenerate HP for 15 seconds. Doing this keeps MoG consistent with drawbacks of Elude and Unstoppable.

I believe when alot more people catch wind of this there may be a mass revolt on CoH Main Forums. Without the ability of Perma Elude I can say that I wont be able to take on the multiple bosses that I can now. Being able to Elude the 2nd boss after I defeated the 1st boss allowed me to take on those multiple foes. I didnt run a villian test but may do that later tonite. This will greatly change away alot of heroes play their game or powers they have taken.

04/27/05 17:25

RonJ73

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

Oof. That's going to get uuuuugly.

I think I'll make a run for the official forums now to see the fall out from this.

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04/27/05 17:32

Nakoma

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

16 minutes recharge time? Oh my, ugly indeed!

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04/27/05 17:54

RonJ73

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

Someone by the name of Gargoyle_KDR posted the following to the complaint thread about the whole thing.

QUOTE

1 SO = 1000 / (1+.333) = 750.19 - 180 = 570.16
2 SO = 1000 / (1+.666) = 600.24 - 180 = 420.24
3 SO = 1000 / (1+.999) = 500.25 - 180 = 320.25
4 SO = 1000 / (1+1.332) = 428.81 - 180 = 248.81
5 SO = 1000 / (1+1.665) = 375.23 - 180 = 195.23
6 SO = 1000 / (1+1.998) = 333.56 - 180 = 153.56
.
1 SO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+.333+.7) = 491.88 - 180 = 311.88
2 SO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+.666+.7) = 422.65 - 180 = 242.65
3 SO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+.999+.7) = 370.51 - 180 = 190.51
4 SO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+1.332+.7) = 329.82 - 180 = 149.82
5 SO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+1.665+.7) = 297.18 - 180 = 117.18
6 SO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+1.998+.7) = 270.42 - 180 = 90.42
.
1 HO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+.5+.7) = 454.55 - 180 = 274.55
2 HO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+1+.7) = 370.37 - 180 = 190.37
3 HO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+1.5+.7) = 312.50 - 180 = 132.50
4 HO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+2+.7) = 270.27 - 180 = 90.27
5 HO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+2.5+.7) = 238.10 - 180 = 58.1
6 HO + Hasten = 1000 / (1+3+.7) = 212.77 - 180 = 32.77

It gives a good breakdown. With 6 recharge SOs slotted in the powers, there will be a 153.56 second "down time" which is about 2 and a half minutes. It's really not as bad as it looks. However that means it has to be 6 slotted with recharges and not with anything else.

There's another thread where people are kind of demanding another free respec due to the massive changes to a lot of powers. Hopefully the devs will consider it, I really want to respec out of Rain of Fire and the trial is just so annoying. :)

04/27/05 17:59

Grifter0408

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

1000 seconds really doesnt seem like 16 minutes. I sat on test and activated, then set auto. It seemed like the power was nearing recharge completion but to no avail.

I never run Elude unless: AV's, Multiple bosses, or more than 10 enemies in one area. Now elude back in olden days when activated didnt allow you to attack. Then they changed it to allowing attacks but when it wears off you lose all end and it took awhile to regain end. Now its not perma, still with end drop but they added end recovery (which I guess is during the activation of power). Its really not that much of a big deal but now I must consider slotting Focused Fighting to more than 2 slots. Doing this means taking away slots from attacks or other misc. powers (stealth/invis/foc acc/con power/leaping).

Maybe since this power is not perma I can just reslot it w/ defense ench's and such. But this is only on test and hasnt been sent Live, I don't really agree too much with the decision but eh. I thought the total end lose was the balancing factor of this power but I suppose the Devs see otherwise. Good thing I didnt use that respec I earned. I had planned on using it but was trying to resist, I was going to try and hold till I4 went live. Good play Grif, good play.

04/27/05 18:15

Grifter0408

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

I just found someone who posted this about Perma Scrap powers:

QUOTE

1000 base recharge, duration of 180 seconds
Assuming Quickness and 6 Hami-Os
1000 / (1 + .2 + (6*.5))=238 seconds or 58 sec down

Add Hasten in as well
1000 / (1 + .2 + .7 + (6*.5))=204 seconds of 24 sec downtime.
it would require approx 3 AMs stacked on top of the above stuff to get this down to 180 seconds (PERMA)

From board member: Q_Arkhan

If that remains true that is bad, you would need a PERMA-DEFENDER/CONTROLLER to play the game.

04/27/05 18:42

DocVengeance

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

I think the end drop was a balancer, but when you make it perma its not as important since you can "pop"it during a fight and although you temporily cant attack you still have defense. As I mentioned before being a DM you can drain for end shortly after. I think they may have taken it too far, but as you said it's only on test now so we can only hope. Guess it's another push for me to get craking on hitting 50.

Doc

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04/28/05 07:33

thejeni

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

QUOTE

Without the ability of Perma Elude I can say that I wont be able to take on the multiple bosses that I can now. Being able to Elude the 2nd boss after I defeated the 1st boss allowed me to take on those multiple foes.

see here is where i agree w/ getting them a bit balanced... you are talking about how you can no longer take down multiple bosses, and w/ my blaster i haven't been able to solo a boss in... well ever, b/f they changed the missions to not spawn bosses if you have your setting on heroic i had to put all missions i had that had a boss on hold (like i do for av missions) until i had a team to take them down... it never seemed fair that i couldn't take down a single boss when scrappers could take down multiple bosses

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04/28/05 08:15

Istalon

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

I have to agree. With my blaster I could take down a single boss at the most. My blaster is an elec/dev so I would have to eliminate the Lt's and minions first and then lay down A LOT of trip mines and snipe pull the boss on to them. If that didn't work, I had to run, rinse, and repeat.

A scrap just runs in and wails away. No fuss no muss. To be sure you have to watch end and some toggels, but really no biggie.

To say that now you wont be able to take down multiple boss anymore makes it seem fair from my veiwpoint. Just because some thing was possible at one time, doesn't mean it was right or fair. (I'm not saying it was or wasn't either)

Now being scrap will mean you have to have some more strategy, and a little patience, that's all.

I have two scraps and so this will affect me too.

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Corruptor
In Cold Blood Lvl 31 Ice/Ice

Master Mind
Metal Legion Lvl 36 Robot/Force Field

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Ion Shock Lvl 50 Elect./Dev.
G I Joe Mama Lvl 31 Assault/Dev.

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Drider Lvl 27 Spines/Regen

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Darkeness Lvl 22 Dark/Dark

04/28/05 08:31

DocVengeance

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

I can see your point about the blasters and If that needs to be adjusted so be it, but there were a couple things you mentioned that made me think.

1) You have to put down mines../scrappers may have to use more strategy. Scrappers dont have options like mines and possible strategies are limited (I use TP foe to thin and love it but you cant tp lieut/boss usually)

2) I could be very wrong, but i beleive it is easier to snipe than taunt, and if you snipe and get too many at least when you return they are already injured and you can hit and run rinse repeat etc. When a scrap taunts if he pulls too many they are not hurt. Also with snipe you have longer range/ farthern head start. Or we have to dive in and bail when we are too hurt. which i think was the idea behind elude anyway hence the original not attacking and the run/jump improvements.

Honestly my biggest problem is that if they are going to do the change give me a GOOD warnin when it's gonna drop, cause Im to busy fighting to notice. And if they make the change i would like a respec since i will want to change how i slot since the way i use it will have to change, seems only fair.

Anyway if balance needs to be adjusted, no prob, but like i said you made me think about those factors.

And again I think I am one of the few people who like TP foe.

Doc

04/28/05 08:44

linkmaxwell

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

Well, I'd like to say that MoG is going to suck big ones now. It's always been sort of a Russian Roulette power, but now, if we don't drop the enemy in one minute, say goodbye to the regen scrapper. Way to nerf a power out of usefulness...

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04/28/05 09:30

RonJ73

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

MoG has a duration of 3 minutes now. So you have a little more time to do it. It's really not as bad as it looks.

04/28/05 09:38

Grifter0408

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

Every archetype has powers that allow them to do specific task:

Tanks: Hold aggro and take abuse
Scraps: Do the damage against Bosses and hold out longer than blasters
Controllers: Root the bad guys for the tank, scrap, blaster
Defend: Utility Hero, blast when needed, root if can, heal if can
Blaster: Big firepower, avoids aggro and helps the scrap eliminate boss and dispatch those annoying runners

I don't tell people how to play their hero, if they want a defender who does nothing but blast that fine. Or a tanker that can scrap great but each hero is setup for certain parts of the game. Now there are times when they can be delinated from but if a scrapper can't handle multiple bosses whats the point. I still die to bosses and av; even the occassional Lt when I forget what Im doing. Its rare but happens, my build isn't like the "normal" build in the sense of Perma-hasten, which equals perma everything. My hero is natural therefore I didnt take it because its not feasible for a human to be able to speed up themselves (more a mutant/science power/magic). But if they do with the change then I will have to be more discreet on who I fight and too make sure that I have a dedicated healer when fighting AV's.

04/28/05 10:08

RonJ73

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

Those roles are all well and good, but they're intended for a group. So the scrapper does more damage and takes down bosses/av's, but that should happen more often when they have a defender buffing them/debuffing the enemy, a blaster supporting damage, a tank taking the minion/lt aggro away and a controller stopping any strays. I don't think scrappers were ever intended to SOLO all those bosses and the like.

04/28/05 10:12

Grifter0408

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

I think any hero can solo a boss, but I would never expect a controller or defender to solo 2 bosses. Yeah I can take on + bosses but I do have to be wary of what I am doing. I need to plan, I need to look at minions in the group and figure if they need to be take care of 1st. Also my elude wears off before the end of the fight with the 1st boss. (Also I have never seen more than 2 bosses together in PI). But what the hell if this makes the game a bit more challenging then so be it, change my game and play on.

04/28/05 10:38

Nakoma

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

QUOTE

I gotta agree with Ron and Istalon. As a blaster, I can sometimes solo a boss, but sometimes not. Even though I have a few scrappers, I can deal with the changes. In the meantime, I think Blackhawk and Darkpool will just have to call on Thermablaze more often... :)

04/28/05 10:59

Grifter0408

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

I can deal with the cahnges also, I dont want to contradict myself in the post by Linkmaxwell. Adeption. I just think that scrappers should be able to solo a boss or two without problems. I was never able to solo bosses till I was in my 40's. I could take on one boss but it was a very scary event. And if minions or Lt's were involved then there was a good chance Blackhawk might be defeated. He also has both debt badges, Scraps really can't do what they do know till later in the game. Plus I can't solo AV's. I solo'd one and got lucky, they were a level below me and I had full inspiration.

04/28/05 11:10

Icetastic

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

Scrappers do seem to get dramatically better when they hit 40, especailly their defesnse. But if you have ever been anywhere near an AVs AoE they need the extra defense or else they will be face down more than blasters...and I'm a blaster I have been there plenty. I don't think that they should be able to solo 4 bosses at a time but to be affective against Avs they have to be able to protect themselves.

Icetastic lvl 50 ice/ice blaster
Icy. lvl 50 Peacebringer
The House of Hurt lvl 50 claws/SR scrapper
LAMO- lvl 33 ill/rad controller
Tiny Ice - lvl 37 ice/energy blaster
All on victory

04/28/05 11:13

DocVengeance

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

Grifter's breakdown of "roles" made me think again (wow two thoughts in one day). Scrappers dont have an exact role in a team and may need to be treated differently.

In a way a scrapper may need an "unfair advantage" now my experience may not be typical but I find my scrapper HAS TO solo a lot more than my other heroes. My defender solo's fairly often, but usually has so many offers to team he doesnt have to (there were levels I only had 1 contact because i was doing other people's missions so much i lost track of who my new ones should have been and had to retrace). With my scrap sometimes it feels like i'm broadcasting "L45 Leper looking to infect you" and the only invites are for bridging. I'm not whining about the teaming thing cause if i want to team i can switch over, but with scrappers being kind of a hybrid sometimes we have no purpose in a group and may need more powers to deal with having to solo. And as i said earlier some blasters have secondaries and ranged attacks that allow them to more effectively thin/manipulate the herd or enemies. (I only have one blaster and hes only 16 so I am by no means an expert on blaters).

Just something to think about.

04/28/05 11:19

Icetastic

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

what is wrong with scrappers being able to do some light tanking...It's not like they can take on hundreds of baddies at one time..(if you have ever seen a tank herd drek then you would know a scrappers defense is not that high as made out to be here)...I mean some blasters can do some light controlling and some tanks can do some light scrapping, some defenders can do some light blasting...are they going to take out all of the little extras so that blasters are blasters no controlling, tanks are tanks no fighting, defenders are defenders no blasting...what fun would that be?

Icetastic lvl 50 ice/ice blaster
Icy. lvl 50 Peacebringer
The House of Hurt lvl 50 claws/SR scrapper
LAMO- lvl 33 ill/rad controller
Tiny Ice - lvl 37 ice/energy blaster
All on victory

04/28/05 11:25

RonJ73

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

Scrappers are already treated differently. They get the increased damage cap on their attacks...their damage cap is 500% above the base damage of the power, a blaster's cap is 400%. The reason that the devs gave for this was that scrappers are in melee where blasters can pick and choose their targets. A load of hogwash, if you ask me since 1 mez will put a blaster in melee range and usually faceplanted soon after.

They get an increased chance of critical hits on a mob the higher "ranked" it is...they'll get more crits on a boss than they will on a minion, and more crits on an AV than a boss.

AND they get defensive powersets. To "nerf" the defensive power sets is something that needed to be done. Possibly not as badly as they DID, but something needed to be done. Scrappers were, in the post 40 game, better tankers than tanks in some regards.

Edited: For spelling

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

04/28/05 11:29

DocVengeance

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

Was not aware of critical hits going up, but that is one of the reasons i hang around here.. GOOD INFO

Like I said my biggest problems is I want a neon sign and bullhorn when it is getting ready to end. Really I will miss it but I just took it at 41 so it's not an addiction yet.

Doc

04/28/05 12:40

Grifter0408

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

I went to test and took every defense power in my secondary, 6 slotted all passives and 4 slotted toggles, 6 slotted quickness, and 4 slotted Elude and Practiced Brawler. Each toggle had 2 end red and 2 defense and elude was all recharges. I didnt take any concealment powers (in my current build) or took combat jump for added defense. Now taking the extra 2 toggles, extra slotting Focused Fighting and adding slots to the other toggles killed my attacks.

Now my most of my attacks are 3 slotted but Eagles Claw which was 4 and also Focused Accuracy is one slotted with end reduce. I went and found some level 48 bosses, I was able to take them down but a couple of hits got through and when my Conserve Power wore off well my endurance ran dry like a keg at a frat party. Then I had to use CaB's and some heals when my toggles dropped. Unable to find any higher levels but looks like I would need to wait between fights for conserve power to be recharged before I take on more bosses or AV's. I need to do alot more builds to see if I can find one I like, this may take alot of adeption.

04/28/05 13:12

RonJ73

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

That's what the game is all about. Unfortunately there are a LOT of things getting hit with the nerf bat in this latest set...

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

04/28/05 13:13

Grifter0408

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

Rumor is Nova will be a single target power in I5!

Just kidding!

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

04/28/05 13:39

Istalon

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

What the game needs is a little 10 second warning when a power is about to go down.

A count down, or your power flashing in the powers tray or above(underneath the health/endurance meter) starts flashing.

I'm not sure, but that should give you enough time to run ,pop some inspirations or what have you.

04/28/05 14:11

DocVengeance

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

As I mentioned earlier I took elude later so i havent become that accustomed to it and just recently made it perma (not on auto but able to be). My defenses are slotted for fighting without elude (since I didn't have it when i slotted). So it will go back to being my "i'm getting hurt bad I can use elude to finish the battle" or "i'm getting hurt bad and i'll use it to get out" and really I can also use it for the occasional "jump in and get in over my head"

Doc

04/28/05 14:22

Grifter0408

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

Yeah my warning when it was going to drop was the few seconds the power came back up. I had like a 10 second difference in the time power returned and elude dropped.

Alot of the talks on the forum refers to looking at the passive and toggles of SR. Raising the defense by 15-20% (each respectably) and reducing the endurance cost. Without Conserve Power activated and running all toggles I burnt the end up. I think what makes people so mad is that they are used to a function of a power and then they change it. I compare it to your favorite tv show being taken off air and never showing it again. You get mad but overtime you get used to it.

Im suprised no one has suggested remove all perma powers, take away hasten...blah blah blah. That would kill perma and then just increase all powers (that were made perma) recharge time to slighty over the HO's ench effects.

Fighting from 1-40 is like a melee blaster with defense. You have a subpar "tank" like defense and "blaster" like offense (reason I say 40 is the adding of slots). I died alot early in my career and now death only occurs against Hami, AV and some bosses.

***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***

04/28/05 14:25

DocVengeance

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

actaully more like taking your favorite show and remaking it with actors you hate and rewriting the origin etc :-)

Doc

04/28/05 14:29

linkmaxwell

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Re: Scrapper changes on Test 4/27/05

I gotta go with Grifter on this one. I'm another scrapper who doesn't have Hasten, so screwing around with powers assuming that everybody has it is a load of malarky. MoG is the only power that lets a regen scrapper survive an alpha-strike, and when it goes down, we go down. Revive is already a piece of junk- 50% Health + 0 End= Second faceplant. I'm just waiting for the day that Statesman announces that Quick Recovery will no longer stack with Stamina...

TRIUMPH
Darkpool- lv 50 Kat/Regen Scrap
Experiment 409- lv 7 En/En Blast
Link Maxwell- lv 4 Peacebringer
Mr Jingle Jangle- lv 4 Psi/Psi Dom

Global @Darkpool

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04/28/05 15:33

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